I don't know who blabbed it, quite frankly I don't care, but certain bits of character(namely, mine) information aren't anyones' business but that person's, Jason's, and the ST's. It really is good to see how mature and professional people are about a GAME and information that they shouldn't have in the first place. Shouldn't people be more concerned about their own characters than worry about why someone else received something?

add in a comma thank you

due to lack of interest pat will most likely not be attending the game good day. from:

Okay!!! We are all adults (or close enough to be tried as one for a felony)!!!! Can't we act like it! Please...

Unless Skippy or Joy decides to password lock the board(DO IT!), it is a public forum and whoever wants can post on it. Zach has just as much right to post here as either John, me, Dave Beck, etc. Zach is entitled to his opinion and unless the 1st Amendment just got repealled, he can say what he wants, where he wants.

Well, after reading all the latest posts, I think I'm going to change my mind on being a semi-regular to larp again. Sorry John (st and narrator). Wish you the best of luck. If anyone's interested in playing a tabletop of something on saturday nights, email me.

Zach.. Looks like your as good as your word :)

Heh Hey Dave, suck a fart out of my asshole? Matter of Fact I'll be there tonight. You can you it then :P

a bit of a correction that mr nameless.. the Independants were not formed at the time that happened. so in that sence the Independants have not.. get your facts strait.

ah yes. Standing in front of elysium and attacking people. Which you did 3 weeks ago Quite hospitible.

First off. Zack your not plyaing any more so stay the fuck off the board and keep your thoughts and mouth to yourself, and you wonder why most people hate you and think your the worlds biggerst jackass.

Second: incase no had noticed the Intependants where helping the then Prince ZC to hold and enforce his position, Hmmmm that sounds like supporting the Camarilla to me... Also has anyone ever really given us a chance.. all you do is see we are not one of you and YOU act hostile to us. Sence we formed we have not acted hostile to any of the Cam except in the support of the Prince. If you think the Cam is going to put a leash on us you have another think coming! but if you choose to acept us, work with us and not be jerks you have been on the board then thigns will be smooth. As seperate entities "Clans" you will work togeather reguardless of your differances.. why can't we? Have you alos noticed that is it only hte "Cam" people that have been acting inhospitable?? the Independants had beent over backwords to try nad get along and work thigns out, Hmmmmmm sounds like POLITICS to me.... but Noooooo you don't seem to want that.. why don't you all try for a change eh?? Think aobut that for a bit..

No set leader doesn't mean you haven't established your own regime. Ironically, for all the protestations to the contrary, the "independents" are following the anarch route to a T, from the reasons they left, to the structure they have (or lack thereof) to antagonism with the camarilla. True "independents" like the giovanni or the ravnos are neutral towards the camarilla, which is why they're allowed in towns. they don't try to set up their own domains.

sorry about the mispost about louis. apearantly I was misinformed as to why He was taken from his position.

and there won't be...

we do NOT have our own MONARCHY!!! THERE IS NO SET LEADER!!!

OKay, Roland, here's some knowledge of the game for you. Yes, Arnold was fucked over, I'll agree with that, man did he ever get the screw job. Becca's Character deserved what she *shrug* She was a Grel posing as a Brujah, not only That but she was a female brujah, That only makes it worse within the clan. Hebbie's character was throwing lawsa out that he had no room to make. He deserved what he got. Now arnold, yes, I can expoect him leaveing, becca's she was never loyal either, but she did wehat she had to do but got caught. Hebbie had no reason to leave, he had no reason to be keeper, he's a neonate. Now lets move to why you guys are anarchs and not independants. You left an association of Vampires that are very cliqueish and have their own internal Monarchy, You have othe vampires, lower on the totem pole, who are sick of haveing to follow it, so they form their own little clique, but on top of that, they form their own internal Monarchy. Therefore they are no longer camirilla. Thats how the anarchs started. They said "No, Fuck you! I'm out." which is the same thing you guys did. Now anarchs aren't looked on even in the remotest sense of kindness. They go against the system, they go against the traditions, they go against everything the Cam stands for. therefore when they are irradicated like bugs, thats the reason you'll have.

one correction to Jason Roland's post...

Lou Cypher- the former scurge who was removed for no apearant reason.

Actually Louis Cypher wasn't removed from his position. He Abdicated so that he could go off with his sire and explore his nature.

one correction to Jason Roland's post...

Lou Cypher- the former scurge who was removed for no apearant reason.

Actually Louis Cypher wasn't removed from his position. He Abdicated so that he could go off with his sire and explore his nature.

Jason Roland I need to know if you will be giving me a ride to larp this saturday. I do not have another, and would like to have some kinda chance to get one if I am to far out of the way or sumpthin

to the S.T.s i havent been able to work my email and i couldnt send it so i will write one up and give it to you when i get there , if thats ok with you.

Ok... you guys still arnt understanding this whole independant VS anarch thing. Look at the members that went independant The ones whos stories I know of consist of this. Billy Bob-nuff said.Christine-A grel posing as a brujah who was constantly shit on for no reason being that she did things to help her clan and the grel.Bastian-christines childer who thinks shes infallable. Arnold- a brujah who was truly fucked over by his entire clan and replaced as sherrif by a walking breach of the masquerade.Lou Cypher- the former scurge who was removed for no apearant reason. And Penguines character whos name I cant remember- was keeper but was bent over long enough to get fucked up the ass then booted out the door. These are all people who were cam loyal for so long that I personally dont see why they woudl turn against the cam. But on the other hand no matter who you are you can only handle so much bull shit. they were fed up with it. So they left. anarchs wish to destroy and hurt the cam. this is not the intent of the pack of independants. oh... and I think that I can reasonably speek for all the pack roleplayers(just this once) In saying. Thank you GEORGE for understanding as a player what we have dont, why we have done it, and for your props to us for what we have done. thank you much. aswell I would like you all to know that I have found a number of people that are interested in our larp. all experianced roleplayers that wish to experiance another forum of the RPG world. I will be bringing a few more each time come for the next few weeks.

Ok... you guys still arnt understanding this whole independant VS anarch thing. Look at the members that went independant The ones whos stories I know of consist of this. Billy Bob-nuff said.Christine-A grel posing as a brujah who was constantly shit on for no reason being that she did things to help her clan and the grel.Bastian-christines childer who thinks shes infallable. Arnold- a brujah who was truly fucked over by his entire clan and replaced as sherrif by a walking breach of the masquerade.Lou Cypher- the former scurge who was removed for no apearant reason. And Penguines character whos name I cant remember- was keeper but was bent over long enough to get fucked up the ass then booted out the door. These are all people who were cam loyal for so long that I personally dont see why they woudl turn against the cam. But on the other hand no matter who you are you can only handle so much bull shit. they were fed up with it. So they left. anarchs wish to destroy and hurt the cam. this is not the intent of the pack of independants. oh... and I think that I can reasonably speek for all the pack roleplayers(just this once) In saying. Thank you GEORGE for understanding as a player what we have dont, why we have done it, and for your props to us for what we have done. thank you much. aswell I would like you all to know that I have found a number of people that are interested in our larp. all experianced roleplayers that wish to experiance another forum of the RPG world. I will be bringing a few more each time come for the next few weeks.

Sounds like we got something like an agreement going on. I'll try to be at the game early (Anyone up for settelers?) so that anyone with a pressing need to discuss what's going on in the game can do so with me and otherjohn. As for Settite blood Adam is right, it is a merit to have addictive blood. Of course there's other sneeky ways to accomplish nearly the same thing, and you don't even need to be a settite to do it.

The following is taken right out if the MET Introductory Kit from the White-Wolf site. It’s only a Game: If a character dies, if a rival gets the upper hand, it’s just a game. You and the rest of the players are doing this for fun. Taking things to seriously, or taking character issues in to R.L., will only spoil everyone’s enjoyment. Remember, playing a game should be fun-if your no having fun, its time for a reassessment. Leave the game behind when the session’s over. This is only a character you’re playing, not a real person. When the game is over for the night, its over. Take your fangs out and go back to the R.W. Have Fun: Not “win” Not go out and conquer everyone else.” Just have fun, because in MET, it’s not about how the games ends, but what happens along the way. just my 2 cents. on the hole argument thing that is going on.

bekkah...becky was wondering if she could still get a ride from you to larp, so if you could give her a call to let her know that would be great. she said you had her number. if not mail me or call me or something. my #(517)723 7060

Seeing as addictive blood is a merit, I hope John says no.

Is Setite blood addictive? John? what do you say?

I think the overall ruling is: "deal with it in character and we'll see what happens"... yep.. sounds eventful for everyone. I'm hoping that maturity reigns. Way to be, George, on making a good point. Maybe people will listen to you... hopefully people will listen to you... they've hardly listened to the story tellers... AND AS FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO I HAVE JUST DESCRIBED: I hope that the rash comments made were not truly malicious to those who play the independants and so on.. because no malice is felt toward your person... let's try and keep the aggression IC... shall we?

John Diem, get in contact with me about your new character

Now I'm scared... what'd I do?!?!?!

shinaba3@msu.edu

Hey, Adam, could you please send me an e-mail or post your e-mail addy here? Thanx.

Yes Paul, that would be another Jonathan all over again. I dont know, maybe i pissed off the RP god or something, but at least give me a chance. if i screw up, then that is the breaks and the ST's can do whatever they deem necessary about it. But this is a roleplaying experience for me, i havent been in this area of LARP before, unless you count what happened in owosso, but i think i did a good job there too, i had the whole cam united, albeit it was for one night, but that was all the time i was given. Personally i give points to all the Independents for taking the initiative to play on their characters' distaste for the Cam, but in the WoD, that is looked on poorly by the Cam. and there will be friction and turmoil and all kinds of other horrible things done on both sides. but hey, all you people who say they have nothing to do, there is major shit going down this week, and it affects the whole city, so get involved and play your character. this is a great time to make allies and rivals. oh, i love it.

Ok, this post is OOC to inform you people of something IC. The IC message board that the vamps of this city have been posted on

HAS DISSAPEARED

that's right, you go to the address it was at... and it's gone. So no IC posts untill further notice. Yes, this is a result of something done in character, and yes, my character has the power to do it. If anyone has any questions, email me about it

As long as the overabundance of crybaby(IC wise) Independents is remedied, coo.

In the midst of all this chaos there is yet more going on. The crossover larp. Mr. Spurling and I have reconciled our two games divergent histories. To kill our game now would be rather rude to Bekka and all the OU players. So I would ask that the disscussion of resetting the larp be delayed until after the crossover (at least.) It would be nice to let the new prince take a crack at stabilizing the city before we yank it. (he can't be there next game due to family responsibilities and the next game after that is the crossover - not the best forum for re-organizing the city) So, in light of these factors would everyone be willing to keep giving it a try for one more month (2 weeks till a normal game, and two weeks for George to try out the regins of power?) I feel it's the only non-rash thing to do.

quit your bitchin. we wanted to change so wedid now you all want to change the game back. instead of bitchin do something about it,this is what role playing is all about. you have a prob and you fix it. so fix it and quite your petty squabbleing.

*mutters* i have more of a harem than skippy does....

To Mr. Paul Darnton. I have already been to animal control. It was an unpleasant expreience to say the least and I thank you for not rubbing salt in that old wound again.

Oops

I agree with what Dave said. I wasn't there to see what went on last week, but I find it surprising that one night's activity could cause this much infighting. To Zach: You think that killing one of the Independants would convince the rest to come back to the Cam? I'm sorry, but if one of the people I was working with got murdered, I would be less than enthusiastic about going to work for the guy that murdered him. To George: I know why you don't want an NPC Prince. Oh, you have rerasons, and they're good ones, but I know the real reason you object. It'd be just like what happened to Johnathan back in Owosso. To the speaker for the werewolf genre: I'll be the first to commit ritual suicide if I get to turn you over to animal control.

I agree with what Dave said. I wasnm't there to see what went on last week, but I find it surprising that one night's activity could cause this much infighting. To Zach: You think that killing one of the Independants would convince the rest to come back to the Cam? I'm sorry, but if one of the people I was working with got murdered, I would be less than enthusiastic about going to work for the guy that murdered him. To George: I know why you don't want an NPC Prince. Oh, you have rerasons, and they're good ones, but I know the real reason you object. It'd be just like what happened to Johnathan back in Owosso. To the speaker for the werewolf genre: I'll be the first to commit ritual suicide if I get to turn you over to animal control.

Dude, I've always had a harem. I'm obiously a Setite.

I like Busy's idea.

OKay, First of, Since when iun the fuck has skippy had a Harem? I thought we all had said we'd never let that happen?Skippy is gettin more play then me? God...and Second of all, Fun or not the game has gotten silly. You guys like running around and being vampire's, but the plain ole fact is this, a crap load of you went independant. And in a city like this the prince can't afford to lose members so he should have made an example of one of you by baking you in the sun. And they gave a council seat to you guys? jesus come on. A real prince would look at you and say "No, goto California or something, we don't need anarchs here." Because in truth, you did not go independant, You are anarchs. And Anarchs are generrally hated more then the sabbat. So here's the deal. If gamne wants to get better, it needs to get a shock to it's system IN game. And I hope it comes as a harsh reality and people lose characters because thats the only way people are gonna listen, and even then I know some of you wont.

I'M FED UP WITH ALL THIS VAMPIRIC, POLITICAL BACKSTABBING AS WELL AS THIS INNER BEAST GARBAGE!!! I SAY ALL THE CORPSES LINE UP IN FRONT OF CLUB PURGATORY FOR RITUAL SUICIDE!!!

OK. Time to take off the kidd gloves and call it as I see it.. Last week most of the people that normaly hunging the shadows desides to say, "we are tired of this and are going to do something about it" and we DID!! most of the whining I am hearing from are the people that are normaly "Center Stage" and were not last game. I seen Skippy and his Harem laying on the floor over each other not doing a damn thing.. and whos fault was that?? THERES! if you do not like what is hapening in game CHANGE IT!! IN Game! not by whining and bitching here OOC!! We that are the lions share of the independants got tired of the Camarilla doing jack squat.. so WE did somehting to change that.. why don't you see this as an oppertunity to Role Play your Cam charictors and change thigns the way YOU want them. not Crying to an ST or Narator when something does not go your way! what should he do take you by the hand and say "here little boy/girl I will change the world to make you happy" BULL SHIT! Use us as an example we did not like it so we changed it IC! is it SOOOOO much to ask that you do the same?? have you seen us whining here on the MB?? NO.. so get your butts in gear and Role Play. and theis does not mean go and be destuctive in the game.. you want Politacal PLAY political Handle this problem in a political way.. not everyone wants to play politition.. Learn to deal with it.. there is a place in the LARP for all of us and never forget that the point of LARPing is to have FUN!! and LARP is like life you will not like all it sends your way but you learn to deal with it and to overcome your problem or it will overcome you. I am sorry if I have offended anyone but I told you I would call it as I see it.. :)

I would like to say that I am having allot of fun in the game. I truly don't know what the problem is. Last Saturday was fun. I R.P. almost all night. as for the other people saying there was nothing to do. I don't understand it. I like R.P. allot and I am really likeing L.A.R.P.ing allot. but it sounds like there are a few players that don't like the R.P. Part if it. they have to be lead in to what they have to do for the night. The Independents did allot last week, and had allot of fun doing it. I would just like to say that I think the St's are doing a great job and that I am having fun as are all the Independents. I just wish that every one would stop yelling and if they want change something do it I.C. We did. and we got members, got Billy Bob cleared. (well the blood hunt called off anyway) and got a rep seat on the Cam for the independents. that's allot for a night. so I don't know what all these people are complaining about not having anything to do. Make something to do. that's R.P.ing, Hats off to all the ST's last week for holding what they could togeather

I am against an NPC Prince. Unless things progress to the point of utter and complete chaos and the game is almost at the unsalvagable point, then that may be a viable option. but not now. so many good stories can be told in the midst of all the confusion and sect hopping.

I thought John was getting laid because he was the ST... In the event any of you couldn't tell, THAT WAS A JOKE.

Okay, Let me sum this shit up for you. You wanna know what this is all about? Ego's. Everyone gots' one, people just don't know how to control them. And the bad thing about ego's is, is that they start to progress once you get IC. I"ve seen it in everyone, EVERYONE. And I like to boast about having the biggest one (it's a guy thing). So here's the deal: Stop with the crap. Play your characters not yourself. The object of roleplaying is just that. Playing a role of someone else, without haveing to suffer the conciquence's. Good God has everybody lost sight about what roleplaying is? What has been happening lately isn't roleplay It's slaughtermainia and If I wanted that I'd be playing war hammer or Mechwarrior or some shit like that. Thats the reason why I'm not gaming right now. When the game comes back to being like it was when i played pete I'll come back. And another thing, lay off John about shit. God damn, some of you know how hard it is to ST a game. He does this because he likes it and it's fading from him now, I'll garuntee it. Why? Because everyone bitches all the time "My character wants a shotgun with granade launcher" or "My character wants to be like god." or everyone's favorite "I want a tak-Nuc and a Vziode hense making a reset, oh and through some advanced chimestry.". Now after dealing with at least 15 of these wouldn't you think you'd wanna pull all that blonde hippy hair out yer head?I'd think so. So just remember, John helps provide an environment in which for us to play, instead of getting liad. See how much he gives us? Therefore I say to fix all this crap, get over your petty problems, play something rather pheasable, and get over yourselves and each other, heh cause I know there's a couple of you I'd like to get over on.. mean,......Nothing.

and on another note, if there were any chance that character information could be put onto disc (cd)... would anyone be interested in personalized cd's (w/ labels) for their character info? I've got the programs to do it (I'd just need the $ for cd and label cost)... more info will be posted later on a web-site with ... well... all the information on it. Let me know what you think...

on the Democracy in WoD issue: as stated before (by someone who seemed to know what they were talking about)... it's OUR game... and we can make adjustments to the WoD. "no sect goes with democracy"... well.. technically we're NOT a sect.. as we've so blatently been told... and for us... it's just a "more democratic system"... not necessarily true democracy.

on another note: I had other comments and put them into brackets that obviously obliterated them... so if I came off sounding harsh.. I wasn't trying to...you just didn't get all of the story..

I must say that when I first came into the Lansing game... I didn't have too much of a problem. The first game is usually best for observation purposes for me... and it allows me to see what is going on and to make better decisions for my character. Lansing was just like Owosso... with the exception that I knew the Owosso players much better when I came into Lansing. But I had no problem, really, in socializing with the new people I met. And It didn't take any time at all for me to get into the IC plots. You just have to be persistant and ready for any reaction... and be open-minded... there's a lot of crazy "licks" (as John says).. who might seem a bit uncomly... but if you really want to get to know them, talk to them. If you want to go to Bell's and have pizza with them, sit down at their table. It's not that hard to be social.. and I never have turned down conversation when it has been brought to me unless I was terribly busy (which doesn't happen much with my lack of invitation to Prim meetings )... and even if I couldn't talk, I always make a point of it to speak later. As for the "story-tellers should keep the game in line and everyone should adhere to it" thing going on... LISTEN TO THEM!!! They are trying to tell you that they have an idea that could make people happier with the game. People listen to st's for a reason... try it.. it works... -salutations

I think I'm getting a pretty clear image as to what's going on here. Role-playing, telling a good story, in larp is a cooperative effort. While everyone is the main character, everyone else has to play the supporting roles. This diviciveness has gotten blown up into comic proportions, and I see it as the main problem we have. All the other issues - Who plays what, PCs or NPCs controling the cam, it's irrevelant in the face of this problem. New players are the thing which keeps this larp going - and we should welcome them with nothing less than open arms and joyous greatings, and countless IC plot involements. Instead they are sneered at as "newbies," ignored, and chased off when the stories they want to tell don't fit into the boxes we've created. This is the face of larp-death, it's name is exclusion.

A NPC prince (or archbishop, or whatever) certainly will make a more stable game. It also limits somewhat how much control the PCs can gain in the city. When we had the DA larp a couple summers back for instance, with the trinity in constantinople, one of the biggest complaints was that any sort of political maneuvering more or less hit a brick wall when it came to the trinity. This in terms of "realism" is how it should be, but whether people like it OOC could be an issue. Just something to consider.

fortress certainly has lost some of its old cohesion, OOC. when I first joined, pretty much everyone hung out together after larp. Now I have trouble remembering everyone's names. Some of it is just that the game's gotten bigger, and I'm not around as much, but some of it is what ginger says too. People just aren't associating OOC, and are taking that cliquishness IC.

Do any of the people who have joined the Independent faction ever read source material on how the sects(he he he) work? DEMOCRACY DOES NOT EXIST IN THE VAMPIRIC WORLD. Supposedly, sires tell their progeny this. Does everyone who feels Democracy in the WoD is ok have a negligent sire(you don't count, Brandon)? As for PC death with an NPC Prince, the claim it would happen a lot is inaccurate. If you screw up, there's always a chance of cleaning up the mess. It's the major errors that caused PC's to die. They ignored multiple Traditions or really violated just one of them. PC's were so bloody scared of what would happen if they got caught, no one tried anything stupid(like allocating all their influences to having a haven sieged...*cringe*). Of course, an NPC's tolerance for an Independent on the Council would be nill(like it should be), as would his tolerance for any other of the garbage that's been going on IC. I also agree with Jason(Tatseos), that an Archon, or at least a coterie of Archons, should come beat down everyone for all the Breaches of the Masquerade and other Traditions. I also think Fomor and Pentex 1st Teams should be looking for the Fuzzies seeing as the whole "stealth" thing went to shit.

i remember when i first started inlansing , oh course i was board , no one knew me. give it a chance. we have been really busy I.C. and as for the whole is this a cam game or a sabbat game crap, what is to say that this wouldnt actually happen . i seceeded cause i was tired of all the bikerin and so i went to a more democratic place where i would be safe to come and go and do my bussiness as i please and i have found it. if you really want to reset the game o for it but i feel that this is one of the best games i have ever played.

If you don't have a charactar in the plot then why do you play at all. Sorry bout the spelling. I understand what I said may have sounded kind of heavy handed, but if you want to have fun get involved in the plot, and do well. This is not about popularity it's about the respect the older players tend to have for good role players. Instead of the contempt the hold for roll players. Sorry Ginger. you have a good point, but just because you don't get accepted socially by all the players extremely quickly does not mean we are a buncha jerks

"I too noticed this "old boys club" of yours, but you simply have to get over it. In order to join the cliqe you simply have to prove your capability."

excuse me? are you telling me that in order to be treated like i exist by some of your players, i have to prove myself as a roleplayer? that goes back to the anti-newbie thing.

i can do it. of course, i've been larping for 3 years and can, to be honest, RP circles around many lansing gamers of my acquaintance. but someone who's never larped before isn't going to have the understanding necessary to do so. does that mean you're going to ignore them until you think they have the "right" to be there? that's truly pathetic.

several of my friends in the lansing area have expressed interest in larping. it's sentiments like this that have led me to invite them to one of the other games i play in, rather than try to start them out in lansing itself.

if you're going to extend your cliquishness (is that a word? heh.) to the extent that you seem to want to, you may as well go to being invite-only.

the other thing is this -- people keep reminding me that vampires are cliquish IC. that's fine. i never objected to any IC cliques. i know perfectly well that that's the way they are. my only complaint was all the OOC cliquing that totally turns new players off from your game.

*drops two pennies on the table and moseys away in search of more fire extinguishers*

Congrats, everybody, we broke the guestbook script. Heheheheh. The file is too big for the script to parse, so I'm going to fix it today. You may not be able to post while I'm doing this, or posts made while I'm doing this may have to be re-posted later.

Random aside: I'd apologize to any of the relatively new players that feel marginalized in the game. If any new people read this board, they are more than welcome to write me an e-mail and tell me how thier first introduction into the game went, and what could have made it better. Getting new characters into the game and involved has historically been one of my weak points, and any helpful comments from y'all would be nice as well.

ok, I've just had a long talk with John(st), and he and I addressed a lot of the concerns people have been expressing about the game. Suffice it to say, there's going to be A LOT happening this saturday. And, as a player and narrator, I think it's going to go well.

your not the only one adam..what do you think of a meeting before game?

What happened to all the text before the "Jen again" message, or am I the only one who is seeing a cutoff in the text?

also... about the prince issue... someone said earlier on that kindred "final death" doesn't (or shouldn't) happen very often... so... if we had an NPC prince... that every time something wrong goes on... there'd be one shit-load of death.........

a group discussion beforehand would be good... but how do we know that we're not all going to end up ripping each other's heads off and beating others down with them? It seems that there's a lot of tension as it is... and I say if people come to this meeting (if there is one at all) then they should bear in mind that they have to remain calm and repsectful.

hmm..ive been looking over the board..and it seems we need a meeting..to realy discuss this..instead of bitching and complaining online..why dont we have a player meeting before game next week..i know there is alot that needs to be worked out..and ginger is right..this game isnt newbie freindly..one of the reasons why i left in the first place.. so maybe we could all work something out..just a sugjestion..lemme know what you all think..i figured we could all meet at 6 or 6:30..and discuss things before game its up to you

hey ..just giving out my new email addy..my old one wont work anymore..so send um here..

The reason that independant presence is valuable in the city is that people take positions of power (no offense to anyone) for granted, such as prince. Power comes with responsibility and obligation if nobody can keep the vampires in the cam then maybe an NPC Prince is for the best even if just to get things in the city back to the way that "everyone" wants (everyone implying people with political power)

i agree with the idea of an NPC prince. i've tried to be prince before and it sucks because if you don't have the balls to inforce such tyrrany, which really needs to be inforced in a vampire society, the people don't respect you. as far i've seen vamps don't obey out of respect, they obey out of fear, when they know they are going to die if they get caught, it really calms down the bullshit.

Here's my point (since everyone else gets to bitch too)... Who's to say that in the WoD, a city might not fall into the condition ours is in? Why don't we play it as it is, until it is unanimously decided that it's screwed beyond any potentiality (i.e.: if werewolves run and hide behind corners, killing the vampires that walk around completely demented with claws out, killing everything they see). It's still a thriving city. We (our characters) still live there. If you want the city to become completely Cam and to be rid of anything non-political, put it to plot IN character. ALSO, in Skippy's case, it doesn't help when over half of the players are in a "closed meeting" for over half of the night. A lot of this might not have come about were it not for sheer boredom and lack of anything else to do. My character would've done what I had, whether or not the meeting had taken place, but a lot of others might not have been so willing had any other, teeny tiny remote option been available. You left us all around to stand there with our thumbs up our asses, so we did something about it. And now, your characters have to deal with it. It's all part of the game, a very complex game. You can't weed out any part of it, because it always finds a way to come back and bite you in the ass. Hence, the independants are here.

The best purely Camarilla game I've played in had an NPC Prince. He didn't take any shit. You screw up and he found out, you died. Period. His rule was absolute. Period. I prefer that type of tyranny to "nice" Princes. Being the Sheriff for that whacko was hell IC...

Another option for the Cam thing is for me (or one of my narrators) to run a "real" NPC prince. It's a bit too heavy handed for my taste, but I'll do it if I people think it's required.

The Clique thing here is worse than I've seen in many larps of comparable size. Alot of that is due to the history of this larp and where many of the players came from. Old changeling crew, old vamp crew, old owaso crew, new werewolf crew. Ick. As for the primogen meeting stuff - it's the bane of every single cam game I've ever seen. The game tries to help by including the position of the whip. All the primogen should be breifing their whips as to what the clan should be doing while the prince and every other figure of power isn't watching. At least that's what I'd do.

As for the theme and mood of the game. There is only so much an ST can do, ask Pyle, Dave, or Seth. Ultimately, the kind of game you have is up to the players. Their actions, attitudes, personal plots, and even apearances create these things. All I can control are plots and what dot's you put on a piece of paper. To be frank, many of the players we have would have a easier time of it in a Sabbat game. But knowing that many have no interest in such a game, that's not an option. (especially with the 20 player minimum we have to maintain our site.) The canonical Cam is an antiquainted totolitarian regeme with no tolerance (or god forbid interest) in democracy. So far none of the players have shown any interest in playing that sort of game either. The majority of plots I have waiting on deck can be used to shore up the Cam.(see option #3 below), at the expence of player/character freedom - thus is the price of order. I try to run a game that is fun for the most people, while keeping it something I'm proud to have my name associated with. In the end it does come down to what you want. So what do you want?

Oh, and in regards to the clique thing. I understand and sympathize with your point ginger, though I will say in fairness that that's not only a fortress larp thing, from what I've seen in my larping experience. When you get a large game like fortress has gotten to, people tend to congregate with the people they know for social safety. As far as IC snubbing, meetings are always a bane for all the PCs who aren't in them, just like mass combats are. I don't know if there's an easy solution to the problem; least not one I can think of.

Well, the board has certianly been busy lately. As a side note my presentation was "acceptable" so I've finally got some time to pull my head out of my ass. As for my narrator John, I see that not everyone agrees with him - GOOD! One of the many reasons I picked him to work with me is that he is a good foil for me - concentrating on many things I didn't have the time or will to persue on my own that I wanted to see more of in the game. About the identity crisis the larp seems to be having - I'm really amused to see all the old arguements I made against the inclusion of the werewolves being bandied about again. Regarding the Sabbat, we had two characters independently join the Sabbat and saw the posibility a few new stories to be told in this. So now we have a pack with 3 PCs and 3 NPCs to play with. This isn't a casting call for all sabbat, this is a tool for the ST's and in the end - a catalyst for stories centering on the Cam. As for the 'grell - Not my fault! This whole this was a player inovation and outside of ST perview. To deal with it we have three choises 1) Ban all new non-magic 6 clans. (Which can be done quite easly) 2) nix all current non-cams (I think this is a bad thing) 3) deal with it in game. The path I'm considering most strongly is 1 + 3.

I am gonna vote for a Cam game too.

Actually, that kind of control is possible. It the art of saying no. When someone says "hey, can I play a sabbat", the STs say "no. the game isn't stable enough to handle sabbat PC presence at this point, though maybe down the line it can". When someone says "I have a really cool concept for this independent gangrel running around in the city" you say "that is a good concept, but right now we're focusing on trying to make X sect work right. Perhaps you could make the concept fit for that sect, or instead hold off on playing it until the game can handle it". Yes, PC IC plots can and do move the game from where the STs might have wanted it to be, and no the STs shouldn't railroad people into their exact vision of the game. But they can and should guide the game through what sorts of character concepts they allow, and how difficult or easy it is for certain forms of IC actions to occur. STs run a game. If they weren't needed to keep a game stable, or along certain story or thematic lines, we wouldn't have the position and the game would run by consensual RP. In regards to the comments that all of this should be handled IC. Alright. Next week, the camarilla should petition the justicar council for intervention by the camarilla hierarchy, so as to avoid losing another city to the anarchs. As the war with the sabbat has just ended, the resources of the camarilla in north america should be relatively free to aid in keeping a state capitol in camarilla hands. The camarilla should request sufficient forces to purge the city of all independent and sabbat in town, as dangerously undermining the sovereignty not only of camarilla territory in Michigan, but placing at risk other major cities in the midwest, more easily accessable by Lansing for enemy forces than Detroit, LA, or other non-cam forces. There. That position is perfectly reasonable for camarilla kindred. It would be equally IC for cam PCs. Of course, it would be horribly overbalancing for the cam to just be able to do that. Now do you see why ST guidance is importance in PC plot?

So what kind of game do we want.... I want a Camerilla game. I would like to do it ourselves, but if that is not possible, then I am all for the ST's making it impossible for a non Cam player to start.

The clique thing, yes, it is OOC, and to some degree IC, but a bunch of elders in a city arent gonna stop what they are doing to make a bunch of neonates feel warm and cozy. But i do realize the anti-newbie thing.

WHat kind of purple stained cheese nips does you mama boys wanna speak about? stop being dumb. No offense...

I too noticed this "old boys club" of yours, but you simply have to get over it. In order to join the cliqe you simply have to prove your capability. By making yourself imposing people have to notice you. Simply play the game, and communicate freely, and friendship will inevitably come.

I know John doesn't go strictly by canon, but if he uses the REALLY big events, then no, the Sabbat is not winning. New York is now in Camarilla hands. The Regent has been killed, and The Black Hand is in-fighting(that sounds familiar...).

Then it has to be agreed upon OOC what type of game we're going to have. I honestly do not have fun in a game that is this disparate and chaotic. How "realistic" a game is has to be balanced by a stable character base and city, which is enforcable by the storytellers. I was doing that myself before I stepped down.

---3)The actions of the characters determine the direction of the game. Those of you who are asking for a theme should make an attempt to MAKE one IC. If you want a Cam game, then get rid of the Sabbat and Independants IC. Wipe 'em out. If you want a political based game, stop doing violent stuff, or start talking more, whichever you're not doing---

Do you have any idea how contradictory this statement is? Stop being so violent but wipeout the anarchs and sabbat?

I'd just like to point out a few things that have apparrently escaped the notice of some people. 1)THE SABBAT ARE WINNING!!!!! Detroit, Port Huron and Flint are ALL Sabbat held, with a small Cam presence. (I think) 2) Through your bitching, you have forced the ST's and narrators to give away future events just to keep people here. I think it would have been more fun to find out along the way. 3)The actions of the characters determine the direction of the game. Those of you who are asking for a theme should make an attempt to MAKE one IC. If you want a Cam game, then get rid of the Sabbat and Independants IC. Wipe 'em out. If you want a political based game, stop doing violent stuff, or start talking more, whichever you're not doing. 4)No matter how hard the ST's try, they cannot direct a game as much as you're all asking for. They can introduce elements and hope things go a certain way, but in the end the PCs determine what happens.

i've been to the fortress game several times in the last few months. after the first time, i complained to a friend that it had been a boring night, and that i didn't think i'd be coming back. i was informed that the way the game is run, if you want into any of the existing plots, you have to "break down the door of a primogen meeting." silly me, i thought he'd been joking. since then, i've attended several sessions (5 or 6, i think?) and even come close to enjoying myself at 1 and a half -- maybe. and THAT was only because my character insulted a brujah elder. "interact more with other characters," you might say. rather difficult, however, when everyone is spending the evening in primogen meetings and various "members-only" activities. as a relatively new player to your game, i'm telling you -- it is NOT new-player friendly. it strikes me very much as an "old-boys club" sort of organization. if it weren't for a couple friends attending the game, i would've stopped bothering myself a few weeks ago. and it's not just at the game, either. all the other games i've attended where we went out to breakfast or coffee or whatever afterwards, we had one big table. we all sat together, and talked about things, both game things and real-life things. the first night, i went to bell's with you guys and was absolutely astounded at how quickly you separated into very clearly defined little cliques scattered to the four corners of the room, and didn't come back together again until it was time for game announcements. bottom line: individually, some of you come off as friendly. not all, by a long shot -- but several of you. as a game, you guys present what may as well be a circle of turned backs. as far as the politics vs. internal beast issue... the beast is a character thing. it's up to each individual player to reenact their character's struggle with their beast. but if all you've got is a bunch of angsty vampires running around moping to each other...what's the point? that's where the politics comes in. there has to be something important tying the characters together -- and that's the camarilla. that's the sabbat. that's a pack, and that's politics. that's a game thing. and it's something that everyone needs to work together on. my personal view, incidentally, is that if you lower the exclusivity ratings, spend some time getting the cam established in your city, THEN start pulling in other orgs (sabbat, anarchs, etc) with characters played by people who know what they're doing, it COULD be a very strong game. however, right now, it's dive-bombing, because people are trying to do too much too fast. and no, the discman-listening narrator doesn't help much either. i could go on -- but others (ani, f**you@whatever, skippy, john the pirate) have more or less said it. *shrug* maybe this will do some good. i doubt it -- but maybe. cheers.

The prince (ZC) was responsible for breaches of the masquerade, he tremere regent blew the thing wide open on camera. We've had more breaches in this city in the last month than any city should have in a year. I am fully of the opinion that this city needs to be purged. (ie the game reset, for population, if not plot) there is no way that any justicar would condone what is happening in this city. -Jason

Ok, I'm going to be straight to the point. I'm giving the Fortress LARP two more chances before I leave the game. I was so bored on Saturday, I left early. I haven't left a LARP early in four years. But I did on Saturday. The next local game session and the crossover are the Fortress's last two chances for me.

Now, as for why. This game needs to be defined. Is it a cam game or not? Is it a sabbat game or not? Is it an autarkis game or not? Is it a game of personal horror or one of politics? Is it a game that's going to focus on a long-lasting and stable presence in the city (no matter what political affiliation), or will it be a game of survival, where your existance is challenged on a constant basis?

This game needs a theme and it needs it now. It needs a responsive corps of storytellers. It needs a defined direction.

In response to the other, other John's comments: I understand your concerns. I had them as well, however please give John a chance at pulling off these plots. There is a good reason for this stuff, and hopefully it will become clear in the next story arc. The Independants will be given a clear chance to something of definite good to all the licks of the city at great risk to themselves, and that choice is the sort of moral dilemma that I hope everyone will find enticing. As for the Sabbat, there are both IC and OOC controls placed upon them, and between their NPC leadership and my ability to say, "no," they should remain under control. Furthermore, there is also a good reason for the pack to be in the city, and multiple plots (mostly political) that involve strained but non-violent relations between the two warring sects will be forthcoming. This is a predominately Camarilla game with small contingents of both anarchs and Sabbat. To do anything less would be unrealistic. John is not losing sight of what the game is, nor is is giving up on what he wants it to be or trying to make it into something that can not sustain itself. Thank you for your response, and especially thank you for not berating anyone.

Alright, to start off with. Yes, Vampire is a game of personal horror. The fight with the beast can and I part of the game. So is the jyhad. Both have been around since 1st ed core rulebook, and both were presented as part and parcel of vampiric existence, so much so that there's a whole sect devoted to trying to avoid being a part of the political scheming (at least ostenisbly). So saying one or the other is more or less important is like saying fighting the wyrm is more or less important than being able to change into a wolf in werewolf. They're both integral. In regards to sabbat/autarkis/etc. I simply say this: decide what kind of game you want now, and stick to it as the dominant one in the game. Otherwise you're essentially doing a disservice to all the groups by trying to make the game work for all of them. Important aspects of being a cam vampire, or a sabbat, or an independent become lost when the setting becomes so chaotic. Want an example? The old pre-reset fortress larp. We had around 5 regular sabbat, 3 or 4 regular giovanni, and the rest cam. The end result was a cam that couldn't play the influence game or really do cam related stuff because they were busy trying to avoid or attack the sabbat, the sabbat doing fairly well, but caught in the netherworld of not being able to fully attack and take over the city (due to an OOC desire by the game not to go sabbat) but not forced to infiltrate or really worry about the cam, and the giovanni who also did fairly well for themselves, but had problems in that they couldn't play off the camarilla that well, seeing as the camarilla and the sabbat were busy maneuvering around each other. The entire game spun because it lacked a central focus to tie it together, whichever sect that could have been. Finally, in regards to IC plots. I like IC, PC driven plot. Its good for the players to have that sort of drive, and its generally good for the game. HOWEVER, there comes a point where both players and STs need to consider OOC what's good for the game as a whole vs. simply what's good for the character. To use another pre-reset example from the larp, it would have been perfectly IC for the sabbat to mass embrace a horde of vampires, craft some war ghouls, and launch an all out attack on the cam and wipe them from the city. Hell, at certain points it was hard to justify why they didn't do so. But they didn't, mainly because OOC many people weren't interested in a sabbat game, and wanted a strong cam. The goals of the larp troupe take precedent over the goals of any one character, or group of characters.

In response to the nice psuedo-attacks on my intrepretation of the literature: First, a semantic point- the clan novels were developed under the pretense that they were a glimpse at the high-level power struggle surrounding the Eye of Vecna or whatever. You want to quote clan novels at me, read Giovanni. Y'know, the one written by the Vampire developer. The one where the protagonist eventually wassails and falls to the Beast, and is utterly destroyed for his failings. The clan novels were written by many different authors, many of which had divergent views on WoD. Sascha Vykos was a woman in them without any nod to the fact that it was actually beyond all such concepts, Marcus Vitel was "tricked" by a very simple ruse that wouldn't have worked on half the LARPers I know, a gaggle of Lasombra coagulated into one giant shadow-entity. These are not normal things. * Yes, I do believe that politics are secondary on most licks' agenda. In fact, the weekly gathering of vampires conciet used in LARP has very little basis in the fiction or the source material. Meeting another Cainite should be _rare_. All Cainites are predators by their very nature. Predators do not do well when trapped in small spaces surrounded by other predators. However, I am willing to look beyond this conclusion and see that The Game is more important than the True WoD. I'll quote another thing from the fine people at White Wolf- it's our World of Darkness. The instant someone makes up a character, the whole ceases being canon. This is ok. It allows Lansing to be Camarilla city. It allows the Sabbat to take Chicago. This also allows things like an Independent being given a seat on a Primogen Council. For what it's worth, though, I do feel I have a good grasp on canon, for what it's worth. * On the lack of politics in the game: I can't _force_ people to be political. You folks have to want it. As I've already stated, declaring themselves Autarkis was an inherently political thing for the Gangrel to do. Furthermore, none of the Storytelling staff had a damn thing to do with it. You can deride me all you want, but nothing will change the fact that the players are the ones not being good little licks. John does his best do implement damage control, but really that responsibility lies with you folks. If you don't like it when people breach the Masquerade- do something about it. Vampiric Princes do not become what they are by being popular (LARPs aside), they get there by being effective and ruthless. If someone breaks the Masquerade, invoke Lexatalionis. If someone breaks the tradition of Progeny, invoke it again. Do what needs to be done in character. I can't and won't do these things for you, and I seriously doubt Wilk will either. * As for the "personal horror" aspect of Vampire not being as prevalent in Revised: The assumption that personal, gothic horror is downplayed is patently false. Read the introduction to VRev again. It starts with some basic fact, moves on to an explanation of the Beast, then takes five or ten pages to mention politics. Or read the caption after the introduction. The one that states "Vampire: the Masquerade - A Storytelling Game of Personal Horror." Or look at the current writer's guidelines for Vampire at what the developer is trying to do (http://www.white-wolf.com/Games/Pages/GameWriter%27sGuidelines.html). When I first spoke to John about his game, he told me that was trying to emphasize the difficult moral decisions that Kindred face, the inexorable assault the Beast makes upon each and every lick. I'm trying to help him with that. * On the reason for including Sabbat in the game: Simply put, we're trying to create some good tension. Using the Storytelling chapter from the new Sabbat Guide, we decided that it would be a hoot to play up the sick, religious fervor and alien natures of Sabbat Cainites, to put a face to the tales of boogeymen. The Sabbat was opened up to a few people because they specifically did not want to play with constraining Camarilla politics, and John and I decided that this would serve us well for a few upcoming plots. Please don't jump on us for this yet, you can always viciously attack us after the Sabbat _do_ something. * To Dave Smith and any others of his thinking: Please, give us at least one more session. Making sure that a sizeable majority of the game has fun is part and parcel of this to me. People want to play politics, fine. You guys want to avoid it, fine. Let John and the rest of his staff try to accomodate everone for at least a bit. The whole Independant arc caught John and I kinda flat-footed, and we actually have plots for y'all now. * To F-Off@Screwyou.com: Believe it or not, I spend copious amounts of time talking to John about this LARP. In fact it gets in the way of our friendship on occasion, when he wants to just hang out and I keep blathering on about it. I just finished a three-hour phone call with him where all we did was talk LARP and formulate plot. He then passed out (by the way, his thesis presentation went well, though Wilk being the guy he is, he's still worried about it). I am NOT two-bit. I'm eight-bit, like a Nintendo, or a Sega Master System. Furthermore, if you have serious misgivings about the way I narrate, you can take it up with me via private e-mail. Thanks once again.

First off, the personal horror aspect of vampire isn't nearly as prominent as it was in 1st/2nd edition. It's become more of fight for survival. Anyway... I've played clans and concepts with which I identified the best. Oh dear non-existent deific entity, I was bored stiff. Part of the fun I have in roleplaying is taking the role of someone who is totally different that I am. On a different note, in terms of playability, I think the Camarilla is the best suited to a live action setting. I think a small portion of the game being Independent(or Sabbat) is fine. However, the magnitude to which it's escalated to at Fortress is ridiculous. The Rochester characters are going to have field day ridiculing the leadership of Lansing due to the numbers the Independents have reached. On top of that, the Independents get a seat on the Primogen Council?! Are we(or whoever agreed to this) all smoking crack? Stuff like this HAS NEVER and will likely never happen in the WoD. The WoD isn't fair, it doesn't compromise(much), those with power make the rules, it craps on the downtrodden, etc. I do like the Gangrel clan, but when they outnumber the entire Camarilla contingent, it becomes unrealistic, as far as fictional worlds go. What is so bloody hard for people to understand about that? Flame away. . . .

Now, in a normal WoD setting, the neonates/anscilla/elders, you know, about everyone like jacob said, "would have the traditions ingrained in there skulls". That isnt the case here in Lansing. What is the ruling body supposed to do about rampant breaches, disregard to traditions, (and OOC almost complete neglect to certain discipline use, mainly Presence powers)? If people understood the importance of these rules, then we probably wouldnt have a huge problem with it, maybe the occaisional screw up, and that would be tolerable. But what are we supposed to do when there is a total disregard for all that? the traditions arent in place to "keep the people down" or oppress them, they are there out of neccessity, and for the survival of us Kindred. Do you want to be put to death? but then you would just bring in another character, that probably wouldnt be much different. I am not insulting anyone, just trying to make people aware, that it is gonna be hard to take this game out of the combat-fest trend its in. I dont want to abolish violence, its fun, but a happy medium NEEDS to be met. Thanks if you bothered to read this far. Peace.

In order to have fun you must take the game by the balls. This mode is for beginners. I did this with my latest brujah charactar Cypher. You force people to react to your actions instead of constantly looking for somthing to do. I have graduated to the roleplaying part of the game. I am a writer, and have endeavered to create a realistic malk. This brings to light another point. Any beginners I am a writer, and if you are in need of personal plots I would be happy to assist out of charactar. Hopefully then you can learn what the game is REALLY about on your own. Vampire is a personal creation thing. Not somthing based on either politics, and or beating ass. Again if anyone would like a few ideas on freshining up their charactar contact me via e-mail. Shalom John diem

Well I see that me and others in not playing to the script that everone seems to want is causing a problem and ruining the enjoymnet of the game for many. I play a Gangrel because it is part of my nature part of the real person I am, I can indentify with the Gangrel concept. just as others of you identify with other clan concepts. It is obvious that few are happy with what is happening in game becaue we are trying to play who and what we are or atleast who and what I am. and this is going beyond IC unhappiness it has become OOC unhapiness.. and I will not attribute to that.. and that being said I feel I should gracefuly back out of the Lansing LARP and perhaps things will get back to what you want them to be. I do thank you for having me and putitng up with me for the time that you have. Take care each and ever one.


Sincerely yours

David Smith

I must say that I agree to what most have said. Vampire is a political game... and it is also about blood-sucking demon-whores who stalk around terrorizing things (over-exaggeration)... but... it also has to be looked at in this perspective. We have new people running the city, and the people doing so aren't enforcing the cam laws. Therefore, even in game, there is a strong chance that a lot of people are going to go independant/anarch/whatever. It's not just the structure of the game itself, but the plot inside the game. If you want it to be politics for a while... do so in character. Bring the people in character to politics, and keep them in line. the Cam has it's rules... and if they're not upheld... nobody, or at least hardly any, will adhere to them.

Reason artical tweleve sub-section 9 of "Reasons why I'm not LARPing." This shit, right here. Bitch Bitch Bitch, I'm a spookier Vampire than you! Lets all be anarchs! lalala! We're anarchs, we like flowers. Gah, Like Ani said, read the literature.

Perhaps the players should take some time to read the literature, even watch the movies, or go to the white wolf board. Something. Because while the storytelling is somewhat responsible for the banality of the forttress larp it is also mostly a players responsibility to know the game, know the basic objectives and play them out. If you take a negative trait or take a flaw then play it. It's a part of your character. you're character is not you. It's not real, but when you're in game it is. As far as this not being political- politics are supposed to be a part of the idea a vampire is raised on. VAMPIRES are around a long damn time.....there is no reason to kill someone else every game.
At any rate. repsonsibilty lies in all hands. And this is not a fascist organization, if you have a problem say it instead of sitting on your couch after game grumbling to yourself. Because nothing will ever be done that way. And no one is going to drag you around inthe dirt for three days after they kill you for voicing your opinion. I agree somewhat with the previous post, by "Just another player" but I think that again responsibility lies in all hands. If noone is having a good time or even having a reasonably tolerable time playing then the point is lost. The story tellers and the narrators need to be in sync or at the least interested in the plot twists. And if you have a narrator who would prefer to sit in a corner with his head phones on all night then apparently his interest is lost and someone else needs to be in his position. If he doesn't want to be there, as action would seem to show then what the f**k is he doing? Capiche? And someone of you will say "Ani, you never play". read the post- its why a lot of people don't play. It's not fun any more. it's become an alternative to drinking beer with frat boys. *woot* And this not all Wilke's fault. There needs to be some serious purging or at least some cleansing going on. And peopel need to stop breaking the masquerade in character on a friggin regular basis!!!!!!!

Well once again the fine narration of what the world of darkness is is misunderstood.To the whiny narrator...dude all I am gonna say is this.If you think that politics is second on any vampires agenda, well your a fool.I think we have all read the clan novels and from those writings by the people who made the game we can all say that politics play a great deal in a kindreds existance.I have been running a larp troope for near 5 years now (multi-genre as well) and in those 5 years i have had a total of 10 character deaths and a solid prince as well as a primogen council...why you may ask?...Well kindred arent supposed to die.Not often at least.Because the masquerade is something that is ingrained into every good neonates skull before he is released from the bond.Now It is my suggestion that someone other than a two bit narrator gives his/her opinion on how this game is supposed to be.If it is non-politics game..then cool, but dont expect people to shoe.If it an attempt then we as players need to work together to make the fortress game something respectable ..not to mention bearable to play in.(Yes wilke , get your ass on here and give us some input.)

This may seem completely out of line, but as a narrator I'm not helping John to run a "political" game, or even many political scenes. If you really feel that politics are the most important thing in Vampire, you miss the point. You are playing a VAMPIRE. You are playing a horrible, monstrous, bloodsucking creature of the night, constantly at war with your inner Beast, driven by urges that are utterly inhumane, and embroiled in a millenias-old Jyhad by the very nature of your existence. Vampire is not model U.N. with magick powers and an addiction to fruit punch. That being said, you are free to view the game however you wish, and play the game the same way. I can't stop you, nor is it worth my time to make the attempt. However, please realize that the thing foremost in my mind when running scenes or just sitting around BSing is that Vampire is a horror game, and all other categorizations are secondary. Related to this is the fact that the "Independant" movement is a solely player driven plot. If you have issues with the way that people are playing their characters, take it up with them in private, just as I would have to do if I felt it were necessary. If you for some reason already have issues with the way the Sabbat is being handled, take it up with me via private e-mail, please. Thank you for taking the time to read this horrid little rambling rant.

Actually, when we originally reset the larp, it was with the idea in mind of going can until such a time that our numbers could support stable multiple genres. the key point there is stable. The idea was to have a strong cam game, that could support minor supporting roles from independents, sabbat, and the like. Somewhere along the line the cam became decentralized again, and now we're back to more or less what we were before the reset. whether people like it here or not is up to them.

If voicing a concern, and something with which I disagree, is whining, so be it. However, the game was almost totally Camarilla clans as of a few months ago. Now it seems most of those players are gone or have joined the Independents. Vampire is supposed to be a political game, even if a Sabbat setting. It's rather hard when the powers that be are having to deal with a bunch of other kindred that are whining about not receiving fair treatment. Hmm, could the fact it's the WORLD OF DARKNESS have something to do with that?! I realize it's up to each player to decide his reactions, but I seriously doubt the Camarilla characters would even think about joining a ridiculous cause(like joining the Independents) if they took into consideration the time of the Accounting when they're more or less brainwashed by their sires. There's a reason for the entire western block of the US being Anarch, because that's where all the panty-wastes who feel like they're being mistreated go. As for having werewolves, I was one of the most adamant voices against having Fuzzies back in the game. I hated the game then, I still don't like it nearly as much as Vampire. I knew they'd be problems especially seeing as one of them is constantly breaking the Litany and not receiving any repercussions*ahem*. In closing, the most successful game I ever played in was ALL Camarilla, with maybe 4 or 5(out of nearly 50) Independents.

some of my thoughts..
1) For the most part Gangrell are not Camarilla they are independant
2) Why does any membor of an orginaxatoins leave that organizaton? (They are unhappy with it)
3) If any facton wnats to suvive in the city the need to get there shit togeather
4) It is all Just a game not everyitng is going to go the way you want it..
5) No where have I seen any sign or indication that is was a "Camarilla" only gmae.. I did not see anyone bitch when we have Wolves!! if all you want just a politiacal gme jsut jsut sit aroud a damn table all ngiht is discuss taxes on vampire feeding right and embargos on weapons shipments to Chicago and be there all night with our thumbs up our asses.. it is billed as Mind's Eye Theater!!! which encompases all of the WoD.. and there for ALl aspects of it.. polital and otherwise that the ST permits.
Sorry winers piss me off
Yes my typing sux.. Deal with it. LOL

I understand there have been great changes to the city in my absence. New Prince and everything. Hmm. Also, the Independant/Anarch/Whatever have been given a seat on the Primogen council. Does this not make them Cam once again? Interesting.

Well I suppose both arguements pose a reasonable point, but reguarless I must put my vote with adam.The reason is simple with the recent arrival of some new players I feel it very important to cast the image of a good, solid, heavily political camarilla game.And yes the gangrel movement is quite political unfortunatly it has little room right now in the chronicle at this time.I feel that the main focus on the game should be to help the players that lack the understanding of how a solid cam game should be run.I think that independant gangrel as well as sabbat are something that make the game fun for everyone....when the game is stable enough to handle such a thing.Which right now....heh....the lansing camarilla isnt.Perhaps our friendly storytellers should looks past the need for excitement for a month or two and focus more one establishing a good city.Just my two cents.

In response to Adam's comments on the Autarkis/Anarch movement in Lansing: the inclusion of independent vampires in no way undermines the political flow of the game. Anarchs are in some ways a necissity in a city, and are an entirely realistic reminder that not everyone is content to tow the party line, especially in the WoD. In fact, the Gangrel and "adopted Gangrel" seccession from the city was an almost entirely political manuever. While I personally loathe the entire affair, I have to appreciate the fact that the Gangrel Coalition is content to announce their decisions with their voices, as opposed to thier five-inch razor-sharp talons. As for the inclusion of PC Sabbat in the game, I am going to everything within my power to make sure that the Sabbat does not become a horde of mindless killer munckins bent on local domination. Assuming that the Sabbat players show up relatively on-time next session, please feel free to stop by and observe some of the more sublime aspects of playing Sabbat at the beginning of next session. If you still have serious misgivings about these two issues please post more comments here, and I will do my best to allay your concerns.

Hey guys, I am really busting my ass to get things together for this cross game party. John and the OU ST have been busting their ass... I am trying to get an accurate count of people coming... Once again this party is April 7 at Oakland University... If you have any questions please email me...

To be honest, as a player the others can outnumber us by a million as long as they were not rampaging through the streets killing anything that moves. On a side note good luck on your Thesis John. Well anyway I just want to incourage the current Quasi Sabbat genre storyteller to do his best to keep the "others" under control. Last game was great. Hats off to all the Storytellers, narrators, and of course players. Have a good day, and may the infernal fires of hell be just around the corner always. bye

I've got a question for everybody. Why is it that Fortress attracts so many players who don't want to play Camarilla vampires when it's supposedly a Camarilla based game? Once again in the Fortress game, the Camarilla has been besieged by an inordinate number of either Sabbat, Independent, or Anarch vampires. I miss games where it's political first, everything else second. Now that there's the everything else dominating the scene, it's not really much of a Camarilla based game anymore. I'm sure if anyone actually bothered to count at the last game, the "others" outnumbered the Camarilla by quite a few.

I would like to take this time to thank the powers that be within the Cam., and especialy Mr. Cochron, for working with we Independants to work out our currant differances. I do hope this will lead to only good and posative thigns for both of us.

Fuzz Multiple choice #1: Would destroying two skyscrapers and killing 216 people be considered a breach of the:

A) First Tradition

B) Second Tradition

C)Third Tradition

D) Fourth Tradition

E) Fifth Tradition

F) Sixth Tradition

Fill in the blank: This person has the ability to tear a Meijer gas station attendant in half with just his fingernails and teeth, but he doesn't have the smarts to stay off the security video: ______________

Short answer: 500 gallons of propane stolen from Meijer somehow found their way into the fire extinguishing system of the downtown skyscraper that was destroyed. To what purpose was this propane intended?

Essay question: The perpetrator of a major national crime is a member of a group in which you are the leader. It is a secret organization and the person cannot be allowed to expose the others. What would you do?

maybe.... just maybe... the pros weigh better than the cons...

i just wanted to ask all you so called independants, is is the life of a...for lack of a better word, "criminal", worth endangering the lives of the rest of you?

OOC: I'm not coming into lansing this weekend... if there's anything important to discuss, get a hold of me... there are ways...

As per the acknowledged deal: I am, as well, acknowledged by the prince. Now, as far as Billy Bob goes, I have seen no proof of his wrong-doings. I have always waited to form my own conclusion on matters instead of taking someone else's notions. I won't be venturing into the city this weekend, I have some loose ends to tie up elsewhere.

Cool Cypher! Then if you all are recognized behave and we aint got to dance. Good point Angus, the Prince can decide to not give us statis or a PRim seat. However, I have status in this City from a couple former princes. I guess I shall see were I stand Tommorow eh? So now that we are all cool I got to ask 'ya somethin. You boys know Billy Bob, obviously he's a bud. I can dig that. But you all know what he did. (Hell I havent been around for months and I heard what he did) Why you all stickin up for him? I guess that is the one thing I still dont get. We 'Grel our loners man. If the situation was reversed he would let you boys fry. Just food for thought. We will talk face to face tommorow. Latahs...

Arnold, the reason you're growing weary of us is because you dislike your clan when we don't. You would have an outsider represent you on the Primogen Council. You might have exceptional physical prowess, but you are a poor excuse for one of our clan. Also, I wouldn't be proud of being in the city the longest. Lastly, Cypher, I doubt you'll be able to get ahold of Arnold's sire, SINCE ARNOLD KILLED HIM. If you support the Camarilla so vehemently, Arnold, you'd know killing one's sire is somewhat frowned upon, regardless of reasoning.

fine, I see that you own blood is lost. Well here is what is what will happen. She will be exposed. I will find, and capture her. I will then mail her pile of ash to you with a lovely sympathy card

well dumb@$$ you cant thereaten me with right of destruction. and further more loving me , ha , you just want to keep me under your wing like a child . well you know what. I AM NOT A CHILD. and i will not be treated as such. and for the last time NEVER mention her again. this quarrel is between you and i and maybe atkins too cause you both really piss me off. now the time for talk is nearing its end and i grow weary of the both of you.

ARGUE AND BITCH IN EMAIL MY Lord...

I am tired of arguing with you. If you will not wisen up I will contact your sire, and make him invoke the rite of destruction. You are a stain on the honor of us all, and I will not abide by your TREASON. That is what you are doing. You are a traitor to you line, and those who claimed you as one of their own. I serve only the brujah clan, and love you dearly. Please change, but hear me. The girl will be exposed, and you know that an affront of this magnetude can not be allowed to stand.

i am not argueing and yes i am a neonate. at least we have established the fact that your brain now functionaly works.

enough arguing. Arnold you are a noenate

first off, the matter with christine is closed. second , the way teo handle this is astonishing, i cant believe that you dont even trust your own clan. third , i , not you atkins, or you cypher , have been in this city the longest. i believe that i know what is best when,and if,you prove yourself to me maybe then i will show the slightest glimmer of respect until such time i DON'T care.

just a quick not Cliff. Weather we are cam or independent is not just up to us. it is upto us. me, you, or any other of our kind. it is up to the Prince of the city. and yes I did stand before our city prince and he welcomed me to this great city. and also told me that I was to be called a independent, and explaned to me what that ment. If the prince of the city wants us to be Cam instead of Independent then by all means do so. and lets us have our say like the other clans. Its not our choice as Grel to be independent or Cam. It is the rule of the Prince. So as a last note what you are telling us is that sence you are Cam is that meaning that the Prince has let the Grel clan to have a seat? if not then you are a independent willing to Ade the Cam when needed.

Cliff, for your information we are all of the accepted.

OOC. Grrrrr too tired tongiht to come up with some good banter LOL

America was formed away from Britian, not within the same territory. A better example would be the civil war were the south tried to remove themselves from the United States. That is what you have done. As for the 'grel being independent I aint going to say this three times, everyone of us is different. Xavier left the choice to us two years ago. (And two years is hardly a "Long Time" in Vampire terms) Hell son I have been away for a few months now with Xavier, he did call a gathering you know? I think I can testify fairly on what the man was thinking. I am Camerilla. What I meant, Angus, by saying "lettin you back in" was exactlly that. The Gangrel helped form the Camerilla. We our one of the original 7. If we are true "Independent" thinkers then one Gangrel, even one as powerfull as Xavier, can not make the choice for all of us. That would be erasing our history with the Cam. Aint going to happen. 'Grel hold primigon seats in many cities man. The choice on wether or not you are Camerilla lies with you. If you choose to remain independent that is fine with me 'bro. Just get recognized by Zach and we will not have a problem. However, break the rules like Billy Bob and that when shit hits the fan. I guess I can summerize what I am trying to say in these couple points:

1: It is up to each individual Gangrel to determine were his or her loyalities stand.

2: If you choose to be independent from the Camerilla that is fine. Just dont start up a nation in the same territory. That is how wars start. (United States Civil War for example)It is insulting and makes Zach look week in the eyes of the Camerilla.

3: Independents can still be recognized by Zach. (If they are truely INDEPENDENT, Meaning not envolved with some other political organization) Recognized vampires are safe from the Scourge of the city.

4. Recognized Independents are guests in the city. If they break the rules of the city they are subject to the punishment as mandated by the laws of the city.

I sincerely hope that things will begin to cool down on this whole "cam vs. independants" issue. And Mr. Ice, please, if you have a problem with our location of residence, act rationally and contact us so we can make further arrangements. When children fight over toys, blood is not shed, so why do we, as adults, act more irrational? As the supernatural life within Lansing, it should be our top priority to keep the Masquerade with-held. I'm not saying that we should bring instant death to the breachers of it, but instead, to work together to cover up any past incedences, and to avoid any future breaches. All of this can be easily resolved with no harm to any. I only hope that the light of this fact will strike the minds of those who seek to issue death, and that we can come to a peaceful agreement. Lansing is a large enough area, and it has enough land around it, to be able to maintain all of our needs. Why should we slaughter ourselves when there's a better way?

Let is all make sure we do not take what we may or may not know out of game into the game.

Actually, this is more of an intraclan dispute than something that is between multiple clans of the Camarilla. Having a non-clan member as your Primogen tends to cause problems such as these.

Hmmmmmm do you see all this bickering and problems within the Cam? (how can you not?) It never stops.. it is not a wonder people are wanting to leave such Chaos to exist in a more hospitipal way. May I suggest that the Camarilla look in to cleaning up it's own yard before worring about anothers. For evidence of this I would like to point out the posts that have been on here for the last few days.. I have noticed that the poponderance of the messages that have been violent and threatening in nature are those of Camarilla membors, with only a select few exceptions. and the posts from we, the Independants, have been non-hostile. What more perfect example and reason could you posable want for any logical Canites to want to align themselves with a less complicated, violet, holtile and power hungy enviornment?

*Awaits the Hostile and argumentative responces, feeling sure he will not be disapointed*

By the way.... any Canite that would be interested in joining us in our sanity please contact me or another one of the Independants, WE work togeather and if your not happy your are free to leave without fear of retribution so long as we are given advance notice. :)

For the first time, Cypher has made a good point. When, not if, our "Primogen's" true lineage is discovered, those of our clan who have supported her will receive some... unpleasentries. Arnold, if you support the Camarilla so vehemently, you'd know it doesn't solve intrasect disputes by resorting to violence, that is a Sabbat practice. You'd also know Brujah stick together, and those posing as us are usually dealt with in the same fassion as those who attend Rants but are not of our lineage. Lastly, are you trying to form a new bloodline? What is this Brujha 'clan'?

hey webster if you dont like the way i spell you can come talk to me the old fashioned way with fist ,you pansie. and further more it isnt your f'n cam cypher it belongs to all of us, so the correct possesive would be our cam. and if you dont like the way i run this clan you can kiss off i dont carre if you are older or more famous i decide because i have been here the longest. cypher,if you want, i will knock that fame right out your @$$ and as for webster if you plan on haveing any decent conversation with me maybe you should leave your e-mail. if you are a member of my clan then you shouldnt be AFRAID of what you say.

Arnold, its BRUJAH!!!!!! And further more, it seems to me that your own true nature deceives you. You say she is accepted as Brujah, but you did not say that she was truly a Brujah. Perhaps you should listen to your heart. Anyways, back to the dictionaries.

The Brujah clan as a whole are part of both the cam, and the sabbat. The brujah clan is greater than any one city. The fact that you are allowing the imposter to pose as a Brujah is a public insult to all of us. If you don't take me seriosly then perhaps when you have elders breathing down your neck you will take my words of advice into consideration. Test her blood, and see the truth. If you do not, and my aurgument stands then you are allowing a gangrel control the Brujah within the eyes of my clan, and thus the people in the positions of power might find it to their best interest to test her. Honestly if I let one of the Malkavians take control of the Tremere family would the regent be raising holy hell? Honestly this is very humiliating

To ALl i expect that the matter with christine is closed she is a brujha and has been accnowledged as one of us. In my eyes and to the cam. she is brujha. if the other brujha dont like it they can talk to me. and i expect them to. If you wish to inquire further i will be forced to take drastic action.

at this point in time I would like to remind everyone in the game that this message board is
PUBLICLY ACCESIBLE.
everything that you've said here is quite possibly being viewd by the FBI, NSA, and the society of leopold.
I know some of you havn't been around long enough to know about this... but certain people have heard this argument enough times to know that everything said here is not secure, and completely IC. Thank you, and have a nice day.

I haven't had alot of time to catch up on all the reading on this board, but I have caught on to one thing. I announced the bloodhunt in a meeting with the Primogen council who were supposed to disseminate that to the various members of their clans. Nevertheless I shall do so now. Billy Bob is bloodhunted for breaching the First and Second Traditions the first charge I cannot go into on this message board due to the intense scrutiny placed upon all of us as a result of his breach the latter in the matter of the destruction of lives and property within the domain of the Ventrue and Elysium. On the breach I do have (an approved) video evidence which I will pass to Mr. Mordane to display to those who have doubts about the nature of Billy Bob's actions.

I expect the Gangrel associated with Billy will assist in the cleanup of his mess after they are presented with the truth. Responsibility for ones own actions is after all one of the pillars of independence and self-reliance.

If you wish to test my words then there must be a way to test her blood. It is disrespect to the Brujah clan to leave it this way. How can the cam relly on it's members if it cannot relly on it. Cypher

I am the Primogen of Clan Brujah, meaning I AM A BRUJAH... I am Camerilla loyal, standing as primogen and following the traditions and the guidelines that Cochran sets forth... I also do not wish his death. I am clan loyal, saving Arnold from a shoveling... I am a good sire teaching my childe everything I know. Atkins, I have been recognized by the prince as a Brujah and by further stating that I am not you are second guessing the princes wisdom. Also if I was a Gangrel as you incorrectly state then I would be stepping up for Billy Bob at this point, but instead I am of the belief that he has dug his own grave because of his blood hunt called on him and the battle he has chosen to take with the Garou. Also, I do not believe the independants need to respect our blood hunt, but our domain (When in Rome do as the Romans do...) As long as you choose to be in our domain then you can expect to live by our rules, the Camerilla Traditions including blood hunt. Also, in response to how