I don't know who blabbed it, quite frankly I don't care, but certain bits of character(namely, mine) information aren't anyones' business but that person's, Jason's, and the ST's. It really is good to see how mature and professional people are about a GAME and information that they shouldn't have in the first place. Shouldn't people be more concerned about their own characters than worry about why someone else received something?

add in a comma thank you

due to lack of interest pat will most likely not be attending the game good day. from:

Okay!!! We are all adults (or close enough to be tried as one for a felony)!!!! Can't we act like it! Please...

Unless Skippy or Joy decides to password lock the board(DO IT!), it is a public forum and whoever wants can post on it. Zach has just as much right to post here as either John, me, Dave Beck, etc. Zach is entitled to his opinion and unless the 1st Amendment just got repealled, he can say what he wants, where he wants.

Well, after reading all the latest posts, I think I'm going to change my mind on being a semi-regular to larp again. Sorry John (st and narrator). Wish you the best of luck. If anyone's interested in playing a tabletop of something on saturday nights, email me.

Zach.. Looks like your as good as your word :)

Heh Hey Dave, suck a fart out of my asshole? Matter of Fact I'll be there tonight. You can you it then :P

a bit of a correction that mr nameless.. the Independants were not formed at the time that happened. so in that sence the Independants have not.. get your facts strait.

ah yes. Standing in front of elysium and attacking people. Which you did 3 weeks ago Quite hospitible.

First off. Zack your not plyaing any more so stay the fuck off the board and keep your thoughts and mouth to yourself, and you wonder why most people hate you and think your the worlds biggerst jackass.

Second: incase no had noticed the Intependants where helping the then Prince ZC to hold and enforce his position, Hmmmm that sounds like supporting the Camarilla to me... Also has anyone ever really given us a chance.. all you do is see we are not one of you and YOU act hostile to us. Sence we formed we have not acted hostile to any of the Cam except in the support of the Prince. If you think the Cam is going to put a leash on us you have another think coming! but if you choose to acept us, work with us and not be jerks you have been on the board then thigns will be smooth. As seperate entities "Clans" you will work togeather reguardless of your differances.. why can't we? Have you alos noticed that is it only hte "Cam" people that have been acting inhospitable?? the Independants had beent over backwords to try nad get along and work thigns out, Hmmmmmm sounds like POLITICS to me.... but Noooooo you don't seem to want that.. why don't you all try for a change eh?? Think aobut that for a bit..

No set leader doesn't mean you haven't established your own regime. Ironically, for all the protestations to the contrary, the "independents" are following the anarch route to a T, from the reasons they left, to the structure they have (or lack thereof) to antagonism with the camarilla. True "independents" like the giovanni or the ravnos are neutral towards the camarilla, which is why they're allowed in towns. they don't try to set up their own domains.

sorry about the mispost about louis. apearantly I was misinformed as to why He was taken from his position.

and there won't be...

we do NOT have our own MONARCHY!!! THERE IS NO SET LEADER!!!

OKay, Roland, here's some knowledge of the game for you. Yes, Arnold was fucked over, I'll agree with that, man did he ever get the screw job. Becca's Character deserved what she *shrug* She was a Grel posing as a Brujah, not only That but she was a female brujah, That only makes it worse within the clan. Hebbie's character was throwing lawsa out that he had no room to make. He deserved what he got. Now arnold, yes, I can expoect him leaveing, becca's she was never loyal either, but she did wehat she had to do but got caught. Hebbie had no reason to leave, he had no reason to be keeper, he's a neonate. Now lets move to why you guys are anarchs and not independants. You left an association of Vampires that are very cliqueish and have their own internal Monarchy, You have othe vampires, lower on the totem pole, who are sick of haveing to follow it, so they form their own little clique, but on top of that, they form their own internal Monarchy. Therefore they are no longer camirilla. Thats how the anarchs started. They said "No, Fuck you! I'm out." which is the same thing you guys did. Now anarchs aren't looked on even in the remotest sense of kindness. They go against the system, they go against the traditions, they go against everything the Cam stands for. therefore when they are irradicated like bugs, thats the reason you'll have.

one correction to Jason Roland's post...

Lou Cypher- the former scurge who was removed for no apearant reason.

Actually Louis Cypher wasn't removed from his position. He Abdicated so that he could go off with his sire and explore his nature.

one correction to Jason Roland's post...

Lou Cypher- the former scurge who was removed for no apearant reason.

Actually Louis Cypher wasn't removed from his position. He Abdicated so that he could go off with his sire and explore his nature.

Jason Roland I need to know if you will be giving me a ride to larp this saturday. I do not have another, and would like to have some kinda chance to get one if I am to far out of the way or sumpthin

to the S.T.s i havent been able to work my email and i couldnt send it so i will write one up and give it to you when i get there , if thats ok with you.

Ok... you guys still arnt understanding this whole independant VS anarch thing. Look at the members that went independant The ones whos stories I know of consist of this. Billy Bob-nuff said.Christine-A grel posing as a brujah who was constantly shit on for no reason being that she did things to help her clan and the grel.Bastian-christines childer who thinks shes infallable. Arnold- a brujah who was truly fucked over by his entire clan and replaced as sherrif by a walking breach of the masquerade.Lou Cypher- the former scurge who was removed for no apearant reason. And Penguines character whos name I cant remember- was keeper but was bent over long enough to get fucked up the ass then booted out the door. These are all people who were cam loyal for so long that I personally dont see why they woudl turn against the cam. But on the other hand no matter who you are you can only handle so much bull shit. they were fed up with it. So they left. anarchs wish to destroy and hurt the cam. this is not the intent of the pack of independants. oh... and I think that I can reasonably speek for all the pack roleplayers(just this once) In saying. Thank you GEORGE for understanding as a player what we have dont, why we have done it, and for your props to us for what we have done. thank you much. aswell I would like you all to know that I have found a number of people that are interested in our larp. all experianced roleplayers that wish to experiance another forum of the RPG world. I will be bringing a few more each time come for the next few weeks.

Ok... you guys still arnt understanding this whole independant VS anarch thing. Look at the members that went independant The ones whos stories I know of consist of this. Billy Bob-nuff said.Christine-A grel posing as a brujah who was constantly shit on for no reason being that she did things to help her clan and the grel.Bastian-christines childer who thinks shes infallable. Arnold- a brujah who was truly fucked over by his entire clan and replaced as sherrif by a walking breach of the masquerade.Lou Cypher- the former scurge who was removed for no apearant reason. And Penguines character whos name I cant remember- was keeper but was bent over long enough to get fucked up the ass then booted out the door. These are all people who were cam loyal for so long that I personally dont see why they woudl turn against the cam. But on the other hand no matter who you are you can only handle so much bull shit. they were fed up with it. So they left. anarchs wish to destroy and hurt the cam. this is not the intent of the pack of independants. oh... and I think that I can reasonably speek for all the pack roleplayers(just this once) In saying. Thank you GEORGE for understanding as a player what we have dont, why we have done it, and for your props to us for what we have done. thank you much. aswell I would like you all to know that I have found a number of people that are interested in our larp. all experianced roleplayers that wish to experiance another forum of the RPG world. I will be bringing a few more each time come for the next few weeks.

Sounds like we got something like an agreement going on. I'll try to be at the game early (Anyone up for settelers?) so that anyone with a pressing need to discuss what's going on in the game can do so with me and otherjohn. As for Settite blood Adam is right, it is a merit to have addictive blood. Of course there's other sneeky ways to accomplish nearly the same thing, and you don't even need to be a settite to do it.

The following is taken right out if the MET Introductory Kit from the White-Wolf site. It’s only a Game: If a character dies, if a rival gets the upper hand, it’s just a game. You and the rest of the players are doing this for fun. Taking things to seriously, or taking character issues in to R.L., will only spoil everyone’s enjoyment. Remember, playing a game should be fun-if your no having fun, its time for a reassessment. Leave the game behind when the session’s over. This is only a character you’re playing, not a real person. When the game is over for the night, its over. Take your fangs out and go back to the R.W. Have Fun: Not “win” Not go out and conquer everyone else.” Just have fun, because in MET, it’s not about how the games ends, but what happens along the way. just my 2 cents. on the hole argument thing that is going on.

bekkah...becky was wondering if she could still get a ride from you to larp, so if you could give her a call to let her know that would be great. she said you had her number. if not mail me or call me or something. my #(517)723 7060

Seeing as addictive blood is a merit, I hope John says no.

Is Setite blood addictive? John? what do you say?

I think the overall ruling is: "deal with it in character and we'll see what happens"... yep.. sounds eventful for everyone. I'm hoping that maturity reigns. Way to be, George, on making a good point. Maybe people will listen to you... hopefully people will listen to you... they've hardly listened to the story tellers... AND AS FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO I HAVE JUST DESCRIBED: I hope that the rash comments made were not truly malicious to those who play the independants and so on.. because no malice is felt toward your person... let's try and keep the aggression IC... shall we?

John Diem, get in contact with me about your new character

Now I'm scared... what'd I do?!?!?!

shinaba3@msu.edu

Hey, Adam, could you please send me an e-mail or post your e-mail addy here? Thanx.

Yes Paul, that would be another Jonathan all over again. I dont know, maybe i pissed off the RP god or something, but at least give me a chance. if i screw up, then that is the breaks and the ST's can do whatever they deem necessary about it. But this is a roleplaying experience for me, i havent been in this area of LARP before, unless you count what happened in owosso, but i think i did a good job there too, i had the whole cam united, albeit it was for one night, but that was all the time i was given. Personally i give points to all the Independents for taking the initiative to play on their characters' distaste for the Cam, but in the WoD, that is looked on poorly by the Cam. and there will be friction and turmoil and all kinds of other horrible things done on both sides. but hey, all you people who say they have nothing to do, there is major shit going down this week, and it affects the whole city, so get involved and play your character. this is a great time to make allies and rivals. oh, i love it.

Ok, this post is OOC to inform you people of something IC. The IC message board that the vamps of this city have been posted on

HAS DISSAPEARED

that's right, you go to the address it was at... and it's gone. So no IC posts untill further notice. Yes, this is a result of something done in character, and yes, my character has the power to do it. If anyone has any questions, email me about it

As long as the overabundance of crybaby(IC wise) Independents is remedied, coo.

In the midst of all this chaos there is yet more going on. The crossover larp. Mr. Spurling and I have reconciled our two games divergent histories. To kill our game now would be rather rude to Bekka and all the OU players. So I would ask that the disscussion of resetting the larp be delayed until after the crossover (at least.) It would be nice to let the new prince take a crack at stabilizing the city before we yank it. (he can't be there next game due to family responsibilities and the next game after that is the crossover - not the best forum for re-organizing the city) So, in light of these factors would everyone be willing to keep giving it a try for one more month (2 weeks till a normal game, and two weeks for George to try out the regins of power?) I feel it's the only non-rash thing to do.

quit your bitchin. we wanted to change so wedid now you all want to change the game back. instead of bitchin do something about it,this is what role playing is all about. you have a prob and you fix it. so fix it and quite your petty squabbleing.

*mutters* i have more of a harem than skippy does....

To Mr. Paul Darnton. I have already been to animal control. It was an unpleasant expreience to say the least and I thank you for not rubbing salt in that old wound again.

Oops

I agree with what Dave said. I wasn't there to see what went on last week, but I find it surprising that one night's activity could cause this much infighting. To Zach: You think that killing one of the Independants would convince the rest to come back to the Cam? I'm sorry, but if one of the people I was working with got murdered, I would be less than enthusiastic about going to work for the guy that murdered him. To George: I know why you don't want an NPC Prince. Oh, you have rerasons, and they're good ones, but I know the real reason you object. It'd be just like what happened to Johnathan back in Owosso. To the speaker for the werewolf genre: I'll be the first to commit ritual suicide if I get to turn you over to animal control.

I agree with what Dave said. I wasnm't there to see what went on last week, but I find it surprising that one night's activity could cause this much infighting. To Zach: You think that killing one of the Independants would convince the rest to come back to the Cam? I'm sorry, but if one of the people I was working with got murdered, I would be less than enthusiastic about going to work for the guy that murdered him. To George: I know why you don't want an NPC Prince. Oh, you have rerasons, and they're good ones, but I know the real reason you object. It'd be just like what happened to Johnathan back in Owosso. To the speaker for the werewolf genre: I'll be the first to commit ritual suicide if I get to turn you over to animal control.

Dude, I've always had a harem. I'm obiously a Setite.

I like Busy's idea.

OKay, First of, Since when iun the fuck has skippy had a Harem? I thought we all had said we'd never let that happen?Skippy is gettin more play then me? God...and Second of all, Fun or not the game has gotten silly. You guys like running around and being vampire's, but the plain ole fact is this, a crap load of you went independant. And in a city like this the prince can't afford to lose members so he should have made an example of one of you by baking you in the sun. And they gave a council seat to you guys? jesus come on. A real prince would look at you and say "No, goto California or something, we don't need anarchs here." Because in truth, you did not go independant, You are anarchs. And Anarchs are generrally hated more then the sabbat. So here's the deal. If gamne wants to get better, it needs to get a shock to it's system IN game. And I hope it comes as a harsh reality and people lose characters because thats the only way people are gonna listen, and even then I know some of you wont.

I'M FED UP WITH ALL THIS VAMPIRIC, POLITICAL BACKSTABBING AS WELL AS THIS INNER BEAST GARBAGE!!! I SAY ALL THE CORPSES LINE UP IN FRONT OF CLUB PURGATORY FOR RITUAL SUICIDE!!!

OK. Time to take off the kidd gloves and call it as I see it.. Last week most of the people that normaly hunging the shadows desides to say, "we are tired of this and are going to do something about it" and we DID!! most of the whining I am hearing from are the people that are normaly "Center Stage" and were not last game. I seen Skippy and his Harem laying on the floor over each other not doing a damn thing.. and whos fault was that?? THERES! if you do not like what is hapening in game CHANGE IT!! IN Game! not by whining and bitching here OOC!! We that are the lions share of the independants got tired of the Camarilla doing jack squat.. so WE did somehting to change that.. why don't you see this as an oppertunity to Role Play your Cam charictors and change thigns the way YOU want them. not Crying to an ST or Narator when something does not go your way! what should he do take you by the hand and say "here little boy/girl I will change the world to make you happy" BULL SHIT! Use us as an example we did not like it so we changed it IC! is it SOOOOO much to ask that you do the same?? have you seen us whining here on the MB?? NO.. so get your butts in gear and Role Play. and theis does not mean go and be destuctive in the game.. you want Politacal PLAY political Handle this problem in a political way.. not everyone wants to play politition.. Learn to deal with it.. there is a place in the LARP for all of us and never forget that the point of LARPing is to have FUN!! and LARP is like life you will not like all it sends your way but you learn to deal with it and to overcome your problem or it will overcome you. I am sorry if I have offended anyone but I told you I would call it as I see it.. :)

I would like to say that I am having allot of fun in the game. I truly don't know what the problem is. Last Saturday was fun. I R.P. almost all night. as for the other people saying there was nothing to do. I don't understand it. I like R.P. allot and I am really likeing L.A.R.P.ing allot. but it sounds like there are a few players that don't like the R.P. Part if it. they have to be lead in to what they have to do for the night. The Independents did allot last week, and had allot of fun doing it. I would just like to say that I think the St's are doing a great job and that I am having fun as are all the Independents. I just wish that every one would stop yelling and if they want change something do it I.C. We did. and we got members, got Billy Bob cleared. (well the blood hunt called off anyway) and got a rep seat on the Cam for the independents. that's allot for a night. so I don't know what all these people are complaining about not having anything to do. Make something to do. that's R.P.ing, Hats off to all the ST's last week for holding what they could togeather

I am against an NPC Prince. Unless things progress to the point of utter and complete chaos and the game is almost at the unsalvagable point, then that may be a viable option. but not now. so many good stories can be told in the midst of all the confusion and sect hopping.

I thought John was getting laid because he was the ST... In the event any of you couldn't tell, THAT WAS A JOKE.

Okay, Let me sum this shit up for you. You wanna know what this is all about? Ego's. Everyone gots' one, people just don't know how to control them. And the bad thing about ego's is, is that they start to progress once you get IC. I"ve seen it in everyone, EVERYONE. And I like to boast about having the biggest one (it's a guy thing). So here's the deal: Stop with the crap. Play your characters not yourself. The object of roleplaying is just that. Playing a role of someone else, without haveing to suffer the conciquence's. Good God has everybody lost sight about what roleplaying is? What has been happening lately isn't roleplay It's slaughtermainia and If I wanted that I'd be playing war hammer or Mechwarrior or some shit like that. Thats the reason why I'm not gaming right now. When the game comes back to being like it was when i played pete I'll come back. And another thing, lay off John about shit. God damn, some of you know how hard it is to ST a game. He does this because he likes it and it's fading from him now, I'll garuntee it. Why? Because everyone bitches all the time "My character wants a shotgun with granade launcher" or "My character wants to be like god." or everyone's favorite "I want a tak-Nuc and a Vziode hense making a reset, oh and through some advanced chimestry.". Now after dealing with at least 15 of these wouldn't you think you'd wanna pull all that blonde hippy hair out yer head?I'd think so. So just remember, John helps provide an environment in which for us to play, instead of getting liad. See how much he gives us? Therefore I say to fix all this crap, get over your petty problems, play something rather pheasable, and get over yourselves and each other, heh cause I know there's a couple of you I'd like to get over on.. mean,......Nothing.

and on another note, if there were any chance that character information could be put onto disc (cd)... would anyone be interested in personalized cd's (w/ labels) for their character info? I've got the programs to do it (I'd just need the $ for cd and label cost)... more info will be posted later on a web-site with ... well... all the information on it. Let me know what you think...

on the Democracy in WoD issue: as stated before (by someone who seemed to know what they were talking about)... it's OUR game... and we can make adjustments to the WoD. "no sect goes with democracy"... well.. technically we're NOT a sect.. as we've so blatently been told... and for us... it's just a "more democratic system"... not necessarily true democracy.

on another note: I had other comments and put them into brackets that obviously obliterated them... so if I came off sounding harsh.. I wasn't trying to...you just didn't get all of the story..

I must say that when I first came into the Lansing game... I didn't have too much of a problem. The first game is usually best for observation purposes for me... and it allows me to see what is going on and to make better decisions for my character. Lansing was just like Owosso... with the exception that I knew the Owosso players much better when I came into Lansing. But I had no problem, really, in socializing with the new people I met. And It didn't take any time at all for me to get into the IC plots. You just have to be persistant and ready for any reaction... and be open-minded... there's a lot of crazy "licks" (as John says).. who might seem a bit uncomly... but if you really want to get to know them, talk to them. If you want to go to Bell's and have pizza with them, sit down at their table. It's not that hard to be social.. and I never have turned down conversation when it has been brought to me unless I was terribly busy (which doesn't happen much with my lack of invitation to Prim meetings )... and even if I couldn't talk, I always make a point of it to speak later. As for the "story-tellers should keep the game in line and everyone should adhere to it" thing going on... LISTEN TO THEM!!! They are trying to tell you that they have an idea that could make people happier with the game. People listen to st's for a reason... try it.. it works... -salutations

I think I'm getting a pretty clear image as to what's going on here. Role-playing, telling a good story, in larp is a cooperative effort. While everyone is the main character, everyone else has to play the supporting roles. This diviciveness has gotten blown up into comic proportions, and I see it as the main problem we have. All the other issues - Who plays what, PCs or NPCs controling the cam, it's irrevelant in the face of this problem. New players are the thing which keeps this larp going - and we should welcome them with nothing less than open arms and joyous greatings, and countless IC plot involements. Instead they are sneered at as "newbies," ignored, and chased off when the stories they want to tell don't fit into the boxes we've created. This is the face of larp-death, it's name is exclusion.

A NPC prince (or archbishop, or whatever) certainly will make a more stable game. It also limits somewhat how much control the PCs can gain in the city. When we had the DA larp a couple summers back for instance, with the trinity in constantinople, one of the biggest complaints was that any sort of political maneuvering more or less hit a brick wall when it came to the trinity. This in terms of "realism" is how it should be, but whether people like it OOC could be an issue. Just something to consider.

fortress certainly has lost some of its old cohesion, OOC. when I first joined, pretty much everyone hung out together after larp. Now I have trouble remembering everyone's names. Some of it is just that the game's gotten bigger, and I'm not around as much, but some of it is what ginger says too. People just aren't associating OOC, and are taking that cliquishness IC.

Do any of the people who have joined the Independent faction ever read source material on how the sects(he he he) work? DEMOCRACY DOES NOT EXIST IN THE VAMPIRIC WORLD. Supposedly, sires tell their progeny this. Does everyone who feels Democracy in the WoD is ok have a negligent sire(you don't count, Brandon)? As for PC death with an NPC Prince, the claim it would happen a lot is inaccurate. If you screw up, there's always a chance of cleaning up the mess. It's the major errors that caused PC's to die. They ignored multiple Traditions or really violated just one of them. PC's were so bloody scared of what would happen if they got caught, no one tried anything stupid(like allocating all their influences to having a haven sieged...*cringe*). Of course, an NPC's tolerance for an Independent on the Council would be nill(like it should be), as would his tolerance for any other of the garbage that's been going on IC. I also agree with Jason(Tatseos), that an Archon, or at least a coterie of Archons, should come beat down everyone for all the Breaches of the Masquerade and other Traditions. I also think Fomor and Pentex 1st Teams should be looking for the Fuzzies seeing as the whole "stealth" thing went to shit.

i remember when i first started inlansing , oh course i was board , no one knew me. give it a chance. we have been really busy I.C. and as for the whole is this a cam game or a sabbat game crap, what is to say that this wouldnt actually happen . i seceeded cause i was tired of all the bikerin and so i went to a more democratic place where i would be safe to come and go and do my bussiness as i please and i have found it. if you really want to reset the game o for it but i feel that this is one of the best games i have ever played.

If you don't have a charactar in the plot then why do you play at all. Sorry bout the spelling. I understand what I said may have sounded kind of heavy handed, but if you want to have fun get involved in the plot, and do well. This is not about popularity it's about the respect the older players tend to have for good role players. Instead of the contempt the hold for roll players. Sorry Ginger. you have a good point, but just because you don't get accepted socially by all the players extremely quickly does not mean we are a buncha jerks

"I too noticed this "old boys club" of yours, but you simply have to get over it. In order to join the cliqe you simply have to prove your capability."

excuse me? are you telling me that in order to be treated like i exist by some of your players, i have to prove myself as a roleplayer? that goes back to the anti-newbie thing.

i can do it. of course, i've been larping for 3 years and can, to be honest, RP circles around many lansing gamers of my acquaintance. but someone who's never larped before isn't going to have the understanding necessary to do so. does that mean you're going to ignore them until you think they have the "right" to be there? that's truly pathetic.

several of my friends in the lansing area have expressed interest in larping. it's sentiments like this that have led me to invite them to one of the other games i play in, rather than try to start them out in lansing itself.

if you're going to extend your cliquishness (is that a word? heh.) to the extent that you seem to want to, you may as well go to being invite-only.

the other thing is this -- people keep reminding me that vampires are cliquish IC. that's fine. i never objected to any IC cliques. i know perfectly well that that's the way they are. my only complaint was all the OOC cliquing that totally turns new players off from your game.

*drops two pennies on the table and moseys away in search of more fire extinguishers*

Congrats, everybody, we broke the guestbook script. Heheheheh. The file is too big for the script to parse, so I'm going to fix it today. You may not be able to post while I'm doing this, or posts made while I'm doing this may have to be re-posted later.

Random aside: I'd apologize to any of the relatively new players that feel marginalized in the game. If any new people read this board, they are more than welcome to write me an e-mail and tell me how thier first introduction into the game went, and what could have made it better. Getting new characters into the game and involved has historically been one of my weak points, and any helpful comments from y'all would be nice as well.

ok, I've just had a long talk with John(st), and he and I addressed a lot of the concerns people have been expressing about the game. Suffice it to say, there's going to be A LOT happening this saturday. And, as a player and narrator, I think it's going to go well.

your not the only one adam..what do you think of a meeting before game?

What happened to all the text before the "Jen again" message, or am I the only one who is seeing a cutoff in the text?

also... about the prince issue... someone said earlier on that kindred "final death" doesn't (or shouldn't) happen very often... so... if we had an NPC prince... that every time something wrong goes on... there'd be one shit-load of death.........

a group discussion beforehand would be good... but how do we know that we're not all going to end up ripping each other's heads off and beating others down with them? It seems that there's a lot of tension as it is... and I say if people come to this meeting (if there is one at all) then they should bear in mind that they have to remain calm and repsectful.

hmm..ive been looking over the board..and it seems we need a meeting..to realy discuss this..instead of bitching and complaining online..why dont we have a player meeting before game next week..i know there is alot that needs to be worked out..and ginger is right..this game isnt newbie freindly..one of the reasons why i left in the first place.. so maybe we could all work something out..just a sugjestion..lemme know what you all think..i figured we could all meet at 6 or 6:30..and discuss things before game its up to you

hey ..just giving out my new email addy..my old one wont work anymore..so send um here..

The reason that independant presence is valuable in the city is that people take positions of power (no offense to anyone) for granted, such as prince. Power comes with responsibility and obligation if nobody can keep the vampires in the cam then maybe an NPC Prince is for the best even if just to get things in the city back to the way that "everyone" wants (everyone implying people with political power)

i agree with the idea of an NPC prince. i've tried to be prince before and it sucks because if you don't have the balls to inforce such tyrrany, which really needs to be inforced in a vampire society, the people don't respect you. as far i've seen vamps don't obey out of respect, they obey out of fear, when they know they are going to die if they get caught, it really calms down the bullshit.

Here's my point (since everyone else gets to bitch too)... Who's to say that in the WoD, a city might not fall into the condition ours is in? Why don't we play it as it is, until it is unanimously decided that it's screwed beyond any potentiality (i.e.: if werewolves run and hide behind corners, killing the vampires that walk around completely demented with claws out, killing everything they see). It's still a thriving city. We (our characters) still live there. If you want the city to become completely Cam and to be rid of anything non-political, put it to plot IN character. ALSO, in Skippy's case, it doesn't help when over half of the players are in a "closed meeting" for over half of the night. A lot of this might not have come about were it not for sheer boredom and lack of anything else to do. My character would've done what I had, whether or not the meeting had taken place, but a lot of others might not have been so willing had any other, teeny tiny remote option been available. You left us all around to stand there with our thumbs up our asses, so we did something about it. And now, your characters have to deal with it. It's all part of the game, a very complex game. You can't weed out any part of it, because it always finds a way to come back and bite you in the ass. Hence, the independants are here.

The best purely Camarilla game I've played in had an NPC Prince. He didn't take any shit. You screw up and he found out, you died. Period. His rule was absolute. Period. I prefer that type of tyranny to "nice" Princes. Being the Sheriff for that whacko was hell IC...

Another option for the Cam thing is for me (or one of my narrators) to run a "real" NPC prince. It's a bit too heavy handed for my taste, but I'll do it if I people think it's required.

The Clique thing here is worse than I've seen in many larps of comparable size. Alot of that is due to the history of this larp and where many of the players came from. Old changeling crew, old vamp crew, old owaso crew, new werewolf crew. Ick. As for the primogen meeting stuff - it's the bane of every single cam game I've ever seen. The game tries to help by including the position of the whip. All the primogen should be breifing their whips as to what the clan should be doing while the prince and every other figure of power isn't watching. At least that's what I'd do.

As for the theme and mood of the game. There is only so much an ST can do, ask Pyle, Dave, or Seth. Ultimately, the kind of game you have is up to the players. Their actions, attitudes, personal plots, and even apearances create these things. All I can control are plots and what dot's you put on a piece of paper. To be frank, many of the players we have would have a easier time of it in a Sabbat game. But knowing that many have no interest in such a game, that's not an option. (especially with the 20 player minimum we have to maintain our site.) The canonical Cam is an antiquainted totolitarian regeme with no tolerance (or god forbid interest) in democracy. So far none of the players have shown any interest in playing that sort of game either. The majority of plots I have waiting on deck can be used to shore up the Cam.(see option #3 below), at the expence of player/character freedom - thus is the price of order. I try to run a game that is fun for the most people, while keeping it something I'm proud to have my name associated with. In the end it does come down to what you want. So what do you want?

Oh, and in regards to the clique thing. I understand and sympathize with your point ginger, though I will say in fairness that that's not only a fortress larp thing, from what I've seen in my larping experience. When you get a large game like fortress has gotten to, people tend to congregate with the people they know for social safety. As far as IC snubbing, meetings are always a bane for all the PCs who aren't in them, just like mass combats are. I don't know if there's an easy solution to the problem; least not one I can think of.

Well, the board has certianly been busy lately. As a side note my presentation was "acceptable" so I've finally got some time to pull my head out of my ass. As for my narrator John, I see that not everyone agrees with him - GOOD! One of the many reasons I picked him to work with me is that he is a good foil for me - concentrating on many things I didn't have the time or will to persue on my own that I wanted to see more of in the game. About the identity crisis the larp seems to be having - I'm really amused to see all the old arguements I made against the inclusion of the werewolves being bandied about again. Regarding the Sabbat, we had two characters independently join the Sabbat and saw the posibility a few new stories to be told in this. So now we have a pack with 3 PCs and 3 NPCs to play with. This isn't a casting call for all sabbat, this is a tool for the ST's and in the end - a catalyst for stories centering on the Cam. As for the 'grell - Not my fault! This whole this was a player inovation and outside of ST perview. To deal with it we have three choises 1) Ban all new non-magic 6 clans. (Which can be done quite easly) 2) nix all current non-cams (I think this is a bad thing) 3) deal with it in game. The path I'm considering most strongly is 1 + 3.

I am gonna vote for a Cam game too.

Actually, that kind of control is possible. It the art of saying no. When someone says "hey, can I play a sabbat", the STs say "no. the game isn't stable enough to handle sabbat PC presence at this point, though maybe down the line it can". When someone says "I have a really cool concept for this independent gangrel running around in the city" you say "that is a good concept, but right now we're focusing on trying to make X sect work right. Perhaps you could make the concept fit for that sect, or instead hold off on playing it until the game can handle it". Yes, PC IC plots can and do move the game from where the STs might have wanted it to be, and no the STs shouldn't railroad people into their exact vision of the game. But they can and should guide the game through what sorts of character concepts they allow, and how difficult or easy it is for certain forms of IC actions to occur. STs run a game. If they weren't needed to keep a game stable, or along certain story or thematic lines, we wouldn't have the position and the game would run by consensual RP. In regards to the comments that all of this should be handled IC. Alright. Next week, the camarilla should petition the justicar council for intervention by the camarilla hierarchy, so as to avoid losing another city to the anarchs. As the war with the sabbat has just ended, the resources of the camarilla in north america should be relatively free to aid in keeping a state capitol in camarilla hands. The camarilla should request sufficient forces to purge the city of all independent and sabbat in town, as dangerously undermining the sovereignty not only of camarilla territory in Michigan, but placing at risk other major cities in the midwest, more easily accessable by Lansing for enemy forces than Detroit, LA, or other non-cam forces. There. That position is perfectly reasonable for camarilla kindred. It would be equally IC for cam PCs. Of course, it would be horribly overbalancing for the cam to just be able to do that. Now do you see why ST guidance is importance in PC plot?

So what kind of game do we want.... I want a Camerilla game. I would like to do it ourselves, but if that is not possible, then I am all for the ST's making it impossible for a non Cam player to start.

The clique thing, yes, it is OOC, and to some degree IC, but a bunch of elders in a city arent gonna stop what they are doing to make a bunch of neonates feel warm and cozy. But i do realize the anti-newbie thing.

WHat kind of purple stained cheese nips does you mama boys wanna speak about? stop being dumb. No offense...

I too noticed this "old boys club" of yours, but you simply have to get over it. In order to join the cliqe you simply have to prove your capability. By making yourself imposing people have to notice you. Simply play the game, and communicate freely, and friendship will inevitably come.

I know John doesn't go strictly by canon, but if he uses the REALLY big events, then no, the Sabbat is not winning. New York is now in Camarilla hands. The Regent has been killed, and The Black Hand is in-fighting(that sounds familiar...).

Then it has to be agreed upon OOC what type of game we're going to have. I honestly do not have fun in a game that is this disparate and chaotic. How "realistic" a game is has to be balanced by a stable character base and city, which is enforcable by the storytellers. I was doing that myself before I stepped down.

---3)The actions of the characters determine the direction of the game. Those of you who are asking for a theme should make an attempt to MAKE one IC. If you want a Cam game, then get rid of the Sabbat and Independants IC. Wipe 'em out. If you want a political based game, stop doing violent stuff, or start talking more, whichever you're not doing---

Do you have any idea how contradictory this statement is? Stop being so violent but wipeout the anarchs and sabbat?

I'd just like to point out a few things that have apparrently escaped the notice of some people. 1)THE SABBAT ARE WINNING!!!!! Detroit, Port Huron and Flint are ALL Sabbat held, with a small Cam presence. (I think) 2) Through your bitching, you have forced the ST's and narrators to give away future events just to keep people here. I think it would have been more fun to find out along the way. 3)The actions of the characters determine the direction of the game. Those of you who are asking for a theme should make an attempt to MAKE one IC. If you want a Cam game, then get rid of the Sabbat and Independants IC. Wipe 'em out. If you want a political based game, stop doing violent stuff, or start talking more, whichever you're not doing. 4)No matter how hard the ST's try, they cannot direct a game as much as you're all asking for. They can introduce elements and hope things go a certain way, but in the end the PCs determine what happens.

i've been to the fortress game several times in the last few months. after the first time, i complained to a friend that it had been a boring night, and that i didn't think i'd be coming back. i was informed that the way the game is run, if you want into any of the existing plots, you have to "break down the door of a primogen meeting." silly me, i thought he'd been joking. since then, i've attended several sessions (5 or 6, i think?) and even come close to enjoying myself at 1 and a half -- maybe. and THAT was only because my character insulted a brujah elder. "interact more with other characters," you might say. rather difficult, however, when everyone is spending the evening in primogen meetings and various "members-only" activities. as a relatively new player to your game, i'm telling you -- it is NOT new-player friendly. it strikes me very much as an "old-boys club" sort of organization. if it weren't for a couple friends attending the game, i would've stopped bothering myself a few weeks ago. and it's not just at the game, either. all the other games i've attended where we went out to breakfast or coffee or whatever afterwards, we had one big table. we all sat together, and talked about things, both game things and real-life things. the first night, i went to bell's with you guys and was absolutely astounded at how quickly you separated into very clearly defined little cliques scattered to the four corners of the room, and didn't come back together again until it was time for game announcements. bottom line: individually, some of you come off as friendly. not all, by a long shot -- but several of you. as a game, you guys present what may as well be a circle of turned backs. as far as the politics vs. internal beast issue... the beast is a character thing. it's up to each individual player to reenact their character's struggle with their beast. but if all you've got is a bunch of angsty vampires running around moping to each other...what's the point? that's where the politics comes in. there has to be something important tying the characters together -- and that's the camarilla. that's the sabbat. that's a pack, and that's politics. that's a game thing. and it's something that everyone needs to work together on. my personal view, incidentally, is that if you lower the exclusivity ratings, spend some time getting the cam established in your city, THEN start pulling in other orgs (sabbat, anarchs, etc) with characters played by people who know what they're doing, it COULD be a very strong game. however, right now, it's dive-bombing, because people are trying to do too much too fast. and no, the discman-listening narrator doesn't help much either. i could go on -- but others (ani, f**you@whatever, skippy, john the pirate) have more or less said it. *shrug* maybe this will do some good. i doubt it -- but maybe. cheers.

The prince (ZC) was responsible for breaches of the masquerade, he tremere regent blew the thing wide open on camera. We've had more breaches in this city in the last month than any city should have in a year. I am fully of the opinion that this city needs to be purged. (ie the game reset, for population, if not plot) there is no way that any justicar would condone what is happening in this city. -Jason

Ok, I'm going to be straight to the point. I'm giving the Fortress LARP two more chances before I leave the game. I was so bored on Saturday, I left early. I haven't left a LARP early in four years. But I did on Saturday. The next local game session and the crossover are the Fortress's last two chances for me.

Now, as for why. This game needs to be defined. Is it a cam game or not? Is it a sabbat game or not? Is it an autarkis game or not? Is it a game of personal horror or one of politics? Is it a game that's going to focus on a long-lasting and stable presence in the city (no matter what political affiliation), or will it be a game of survival, where your existance is challenged on a constant basis?

This game needs a theme and it needs it now. It needs a responsive corps of storytellers. It needs a defined direction.

In response to the other, other John's comments: I understand your concerns. I had them as well, however please give John a chance at pulling off these plots. There is a good reason for this stuff, and hopefully it will become clear in the next story arc. The Independants will be given a clear chance to something of definite good to all the licks of the city at great risk to themselves, and that choice is the sort of moral dilemma that I hope everyone will find enticing. As for the Sabbat, there are both IC and OOC controls placed upon them, and between their NPC leadership and my ability to say, "no," they should remain under control. Furthermore, there is also a good reason for the pack to be in the city, and multiple plots (mostly political) that involve strained but non-violent relations between the two warring sects will be forthcoming. This is a predominately Camarilla game with small contingents of both anarchs and Sabbat. To do anything less would be unrealistic. John is not losing sight of what the game is, nor is is giving up on what he wants it to be or trying to make it into something that can not sustain itself. Thank you for your response, and especially thank you for not berating anyone.

Alright, to start off with. Yes, Vampire is a game of personal horror. The fight with the beast can and I part of the game. So is the jyhad. Both have been around since 1st ed core rulebook, and both were presented as part and parcel of vampiric existence, so much so that there's a whole sect devoted to trying to avoid being a part of the political scheming (at least ostenisbly). So saying one or the other is more or less important is like saying fighting the wyrm is more or less important than being able to change into a wolf in werewolf. They're both integral. In regards to sabbat/autarkis/etc. I simply say this: decide what kind of game you want now, and stick to it as the dominant one in the game. Otherwise you're essentially doing a disservice to all the groups by trying to make the game work for all of them. Important aspects of being a cam vampire, or a sabbat, or an independent become lost when the setting becomes so chaotic. Want an example? The old pre-reset fortress larp. We had around 5 regular sabbat, 3 or 4 regular giovanni, and the rest cam. The end result was a cam that couldn't play the influence game or really do cam related stuff because they were busy trying to avoid or attack the sabbat, the sabbat doing fairly well, but caught in the netherworld of not being able to fully attack and take over the city (due to an OOC desire by the game not to go sabbat) but not forced to infiltrate or really worry about the cam, and the giovanni who also did fairly well for themselves, but had problems in that they couldn't play off the camarilla that well, seeing as the camarilla and the sabbat were busy maneuvering around each other. The entire game spun because it lacked a central focus to tie it together, whichever sect that could have been. Finally, in regards to IC plots. I like IC, PC driven plot. Its good for the players to have that sort of drive, and its generally good for the game. HOWEVER, there comes a point where both players and STs need to consider OOC what's good for the game as a whole vs. simply what's good for the character. To use another pre-reset example from the larp, it would have been perfectly IC for the sabbat to mass embrace a horde of vampires, craft some war ghouls, and launch an all out attack on the cam and wipe them from the city. Hell, at certain points it was hard to justify why they didn't do so. But they didn't, mainly because OOC many people weren't interested in a sabbat game, and wanted a strong cam. The goals of the larp troupe take precedent over the goals of any one character, or group of characters.

In response to the nice psuedo-attacks on my intrepretation of the literature: First, a semantic point- the clan novels were developed under the pretense that they were a glimpse at the high-level power struggle surrounding the Eye of Vecna or whatever. You want to quote clan novels at me, read Giovanni. Y'know, the one written by the Vampire developer. The one where the protagonist eventually wassails and falls to the Beast, and is utterly destroyed for his failings. The clan novels were written by many different authors, many of which had divergent views on WoD. Sascha Vykos was a woman in them without any nod to the fact that it was actually beyond all such concepts, Marcus Vitel was "tricked" by a very simple ruse that wouldn't have worked on half the LARPers I know, a gaggle of Lasombra coagulated into one giant shadow-entity. These are not normal things. * Yes, I do believe that politics are secondary on most licks' agenda. In fact, the weekly gathering of vampires conciet used in LARP has very little basis in the fiction or the source material. Meeting another Cainite should be _rare_. All Cainites are predators by their very nature. Predators do not do well when trapped in small spaces surrounded by other predators. However, I am willing to look beyond this conclusion and see that The Game is more important than the True WoD. I'll quote another thing from the fine people at White Wolf- it's our World of Darkness. The instant someone makes up a character, the whole ceases being canon. This is ok. It allows Lansing to be Camarilla city. It allows the Sabbat to take Chicago. This also allows things like an Independent being given a seat on a Primogen Council. For what it's worth, though, I do feel I have a good grasp on canon, for what it's worth. * On the lack of politics in the game: I can't _force_ people to be political. You folks have to want it. As I've already stated, declaring themselves Autarkis was an inherently political thing for the Gangrel to do. Furthermore, none of the Storytelling staff had a damn thing to do with it. You can deride me all you want, but nothing will change the fact that the players are the ones not being good little licks. John does his best do implement damage control, but really that responsibility lies with you folks. If you don't like it when people breach the Masquerade- do something about it. Vampiric Princes do not become what they are by being popular (LARPs aside), they get there by being effective and ruthless. If someone breaks the Masquerade, invoke Lexatalionis. If someone breaks the tradition of Progeny, invoke it again. Do what needs to be done in character. I can't and won't do these things for you, and I seriously doubt Wilk will either. * As for the "personal horror" aspect of Vampire not being as prevalent in Revised: The assumption that personal, gothic horror is downplayed is patently false. Read the introduction to VRev again. It starts with some basic fact, moves on to an explanation of the Beast, then takes five or ten pages to mention politics. Or read the caption after the introduction. The one that states "Vampire: the Masquerade - A Storytelling Game of Personal Horror." Or look at the current writer's guidelines for Vampire at what the developer is trying to do (http://www.white-wolf.com/Games/Pages/GameWriter%27sGuidelines.html). When I first spoke to John about his game, he told me that was trying to emphasize the difficult moral decisions that Kindred face, the inexorable assault the Beast makes upon each and every lick. I'm trying to help him with that. * On the reason for including Sabbat in the game: Simply put, we're trying to create some good tension. Using the Storytelling chapter from the new Sabbat Guide, we decided that it would be a hoot to play up the sick, religious fervor and alien natures of Sabbat Cainites, to put a face to the tales of boogeymen. The Sabbat was opened up to a few people because they specifically did not want to play with constraining Camarilla politics, and John and I decided that this would serve us well for a few upcoming plots. Please don't jump on us for this yet, you can always viciously attack us after the Sabbat _do_ something. * To Dave Smith and any others of his thinking: Please, give us at least one more session. Making sure that a sizeable majority of the game has fun is part and parcel of this to me. People want to play politics, fine. You guys want to avoid it, fine. Let John and the rest of his staff try to accomodate everone for at least a bit. The whole Independant arc caught John and I kinda flat-footed, and we actually have plots for y'all now. * To F-Off@Screwyou.com: Believe it or not, I spend copious amounts of time talking to John about this LARP. In fact it gets in the way of our friendship on occasion, when he wants to just hang out and I keep blathering on about it. I just finished a three-hour phone call with him where all we did was talk LARP and formulate plot. He then passed out (by the way, his thesis presentation went well, though Wilk being the guy he is, he's still worried about it). I am NOT two-bit. I'm eight-bit, like a Nintendo, or a Sega Master System. Furthermore, if you have serious misgivings about the way I narrate, you can take it up with me via private e-mail. Thanks once again.

First off, the personal horror aspect of vampire isn't nearly as prominent as it was in 1st/2nd edition. It's become more of fight for survival. Anyway... I've played clans and concepts with which I identified the best. Oh dear non-existent deific entity, I was bored stiff. Part of the fun I have in roleplaying is taking the role of someone who is totally different that I am. On a different note, in terms of playability, I think the Camarilla is the best suited to a live action setting. I think a small portion of the game being Independent(or Sabbat) is fine. However, the magnitude to which it's escalated to at Fortress is ridiculous. The Rochester characters are going to have field day ridiculing the leadership of Lansing due to the numbers the Independents have reached. On top of that, the Independents get a seat on the Primogen Council?! Are we(or whoever agreed to this) all smoking crack? Stuff like this HAS NEVER and will likely never happen in the WoD. The WoD isn't fair, it doesn't compromise(much), those with power make the rules, it craps on the downtrodden, etc. I do like the Gangrel clan, but when they outnumber the entire Camarilla contingent, it becomes unrealistic, as far as fictional worlds go. What is so bloody hard for people to understand about that? Flame away. . . .

Now, in a normal WoD setting, the neonates/anscilla/elders, you know, about everyone like jacob said, "would have the traditions ingrained in there skulls". That isnt the case here in Lansing. What is the ruling body supposed to do about rampant breaches, disregard to traditions, (and OOC almost complete neglect to certain discipline use, mainly Presence powers)? If people understood the importance of these rules, then we probably wouldnt have a huge problem with it, maybe the occaisional screw up, and that would be tolerable. But what are we supposed to do when there is a total disregard for all that? the traditions arent in place to "keep the people down" or oppress them, they are there out of neccessity, and for the survival of us Kindred. Do you want to be put to death? but then you would just bring in another character, that probably wouldnt be much different. I am not insulting anyone, just trying to make people aware, that it is gonna be hard to take this game out of the combat-fest trend its in. I dont want to abolish violence, its fun, but a happy medium NEEDS to be met. Thanks if you bothered to read this far. Peace.

In order to have fun you must take the game by the balls. This mode is for beginners. I did this with my latest brujah charactar Cypher. You force people to react to your actions instead of constantly looking for somthing to do. I have graduated to the roleplaying part of the game. I am a writer, and have endeavered to create a realistic malk. This brings to light another point. Any beginners I am a writer, and if you are in need of personal plots I would be happy to assist out of charactar. Hopefully then you can learn what the game is REALLY about on your own. Vampire is a personal creation thing. Not somthing based on either politics, and or beating ass. Again if anyone would like a few ideas on freshining up their charactar contact me via e-mail. Shalom John diem

Well I see that me and others in not playing to the script that everone seems to want is causing a problem and ruining the enjoymnet of the game for many. I play a Gangrel because it is part of my nature part of the real person I am, I can indentify with the Gangrel concept. just as others of you identify with other clan concepts. It is obvious that few are happy with what is happening in game becaue we are trying to play who and what we are or atleast who and what I am. and this is going beyond IC unhappiness it has become OOC unhapiness.. and I will not attribute to that.. and that being said I feel I should gracefuly back out of the Lansing LARP and perhaps things will get back to what you want them to be. I do thank you for having me and putitng up with me for the time that you have. Take care each and ever one.


Sincerely yours

David Smith

I must say that I agree to what most have said. Vampire is a political game... and it is also about blood-sucking demon-whores who stalk around terrorizing things (over-exaggeration)... but... it also has to be looked at in this perspective. We have new people running the city, and the people doing so aren't enforcing the cam laws. Therefore, even in game, there is a strong chance that a lot of people are going to go independant/anarch/whatever. It's not just the structure of the game itself, but the plot inside the game. If you want it to be politics for a while... do so in character. Bring the people in character to politics, and keep them in line. the Cam has it's rules... and if they're not upheld... nobody, or at least hardly any, will adhere to them.

Reason artical tweleve sub-section 9 of "Reasons why I'm not LARPing." This shit, right here. Bitch Bitch Bitch, I'm a spookier Vampire than you! Lets all be anarchs! lalala! We're anarchs, we like flowers. Gah, Like Ani said, read the literature.

Perhaps the players should take some time to read the literature, even watch the movies, or go to the white wolf board. Something. Because while the storytelling is somewhat responsible for the banality of the forttress larp it is also mostly a players responsibility to know the game, know the basic objectives and play them out. If you take a negative trait or take a flaw then play it. It's a part of your character. you're character is not you. It's not real, but when you're in game it is. As far as this not being political- politics are supposed to be a part of the idea a vampire is raised on. VAMPIRES are around a long damn time.....there is no reason to kill someone else every game.
At any rate. repsonsibilty lies in all hands. And this is not a fascist organization, if you have a problem say it instead of sitting on your couch after game grumbling to yourself. Because nothing will ever be done that way. And no one is going to drag you around inthe dirt for three days after they kill you for voicing your opinion. I agree somewhat with the previous post, by "Just another player" but I think that again responsibility lies in all hands. If noone is having a good time or even having a reasonably tolerable time playing then the point is lost. The story tellers and the narrators need to be in sync or at the least interested in the plot twists. And if you have a narrator who would prefer to sit in a corner with his head phones on all night then apparently his interest is lost and someone else needs to be in his position. If he doesn't want to be there, as action would seem to show then what the f**k is he doing? Capiche? And someone of you will say "Ani, you never play". read the post- its why a lot of people don't play. It's not fun any more. it's become an alternative to drinking beer with frat boys. *woot* And this not all Wilke's fault. There needs to be some serious purging or at least some cleansing going on. And peopel need to stop breaking the masquerade in character on a friggin regular basis!!!!!!!

Well once again the fine narration of what the world of darkness is is misunderstood.To the whiny narrator...dude all I am gonna say is this.If you think that politics is second on any vampires agenda, well your a fool.I think we have all read the clan novels and from those writings by the people who made the game we can all say that politics play a great deal in a kindreds existance.I have been running a larp troope for near 5 years now (multi-genre as well) and in those 5 years i have had a total of 10 character deaths and a solid prince as well as a primogen council...why you may ask?...Well kindred arent supposed to die.Not often at least.Because the masquerade is something that is ingrained into every good neonates skull before he is released from the bond.Now It is my suggestion that someone other than a two bit narrator gives his/her opinion on how this game is supposed to be.If it is non-politics game..then cool, but dont expect people to shoe.If it an attempt then we as players need to work together to make the fortress game something respectable ..not to mention bearable to play in.(Yes wilke , get your ass on here and give us some input.)

This may seem completely out of line, but as a narrator I'm not helping John to run a "political" game, or even many political scenes. If you really feel that politics are the most important thing in Vampire, you miss the point. You are playing a VAMPIRE. You are playing a horrible, monstrous, bloodsucking creature of the night, constantly at war with your inner Beast, driven by urges that are utterly inhumane, and embroiled in a millenias-old Jyhad by the very nature of your existence. Vampire is not model U.N. with magick powers and an addiction to fruit punch. That being said, you are free to view the game however you wish, and play the game the same way. I can't stop you, nor is it worth my time to make the attempt. However, please realize that the thing foremost in my mind when running scenes or just sitting around BSing is that Vampire is a horror game, and all other categorizations are secondary. Related to this is the fact that the "Independant" movement is a solely player driven plot. If you have issues with the way that people are playing their characters, take it up with them in private, just as I would have to do if I felt it were necessary. If you for some reason already have issues with the way the Sabbat is being handled, take it up with me via private e-mail, please. Thank you for taking the time to read this horrid little rambling rant.

Actually, when we originally reset the larp, it was with the idea in mind of going can until such a time that our numbers could support stable multiple genres. the key point there is stable. The idea was to have a strong cam game, that could support minor supporting roles from independents, sabbat, and the like. Somewhere along the line the cam became decentralized again, and now we're back to more or less what we were before the reset. whether people like it here or not is up to them.

If voicing a concern, and something with which I disagree, is whining, so be it. However, the game was almost totally Camarilla clans as of a few months ago. Now it seems most of those players are gone or have joined the Independents. Vampire is supposed to be a political game, even if a Sabbat setting. It's rather hard when the powers that be are having to deal with a bunch of other kindred that are whining about not receiving fair treatment. Hmm, could the fact it's the WORLD OF DARKNESS have something to do with that?! I realize it's up to each player to decide his reactions, but I seriously doubt the Camarilla characters would even think about joining a ridiculous cause(like joining the Independents) if they took into consideration the time of the Accounting when they're more or less brainwashed by their sires. There's a reason for the entire western block of the US being Anarch, because that's where all the panty-wastes who feel like they're being mistreated go. As for having werewolves, I was one of the most adamant voices against having Fuzzies back in the game. I hated the game then, I still don't like it nearly as much as Vampire. I knew they'd be problems especially seeing as one of them is constantly breaking the Litany and not receiving any repercussions*ahem*. In closing, the most successful game I ever played in was ALL Camarilla, with maybe 4 or 5(out of nearly 50) Independents.

some of my thoughts..
1) For the most part Gangrell are not Camarilla they are independant
2) Why does any membor of an orginaxatoins leave that organizaton? (They are unhappy with it)
3) If any facton wnats to suvive in the city the need to get there shit togeather
4) It is all Just a game not everyitng is going to go the way you want it..
5) No where have I seen any sign or indication that is was a "Camarilla" only gmae.. I did not see anyone bitch when we have Wolves!! if all you want just a politiacal gme jsut jsut sit aroud a damn table all ngiht is discuss taxes on vampire feeding right and embargos on weapons shipments to Chicago and be there all night with our thumbs up our asses.. it is billed as Mind's Eye Theater!!! which encompases all of the WoD.. and there for ALl aspects of it.. polital and otherwise that the ST permits.
Sorry winers piss me off
Yes my typing sux.. Deal with it. LOL

I understand there have been great changes to the city in my absence. New Prince and everything. Hmm. Also, the Independant/Anarch/Whatever have been given a seat on the Primogen council. Does this not make them Cam once again? Interesting.

Well I suppose both arguements pose a reasonable point, but reguarless I must put my vote with adam.The reason is simple with the recent arrival of some new players I feel it very important to cast the image of a good, solid, heavily political camarilla game.And yes the gangrel movement is quite political unfortunatly it has little room right now in the chronicle at this time.I feel that the main focus on the game should be to help the players that lack the understanding of how a solid cam game should be run.I think that independant gangrel as well as sabbat are something that make the game fun for everyone....when the game is stable enough to handle such a thing.Which right now....heh....the lansing camarilla isnt.Perhaps our friendly storytellers should looks past the need for excitement for a month or two and focus more one establishing a good city.Just my two cents.

In response to Adam's comments on the Autarkis/Anarch movement in Lansing: the inclusion of independent vampires in no way undermines the political flow of the game. Anarchs are in some ways a necissity in a city, and are an entirely realistic reminder that not everyone is content to tow the party line, especially in the WoD. In fact, the Gangrel and "adopted Gangrel" seccession from the city was an almost entirely political manuever. While I personally loathe the entire affair, I have to appreciate the fact that the Gangrel Coalition is content to announce their decisions with their voices, as opposed to thier five-inch razor-sharp talons. As for the inclusion of PC Sabbat in the game, I am going to everything within my power to make sure that the Sabbat does not become a horde of mindless killer munckins bent on local domination. Assuming that the Sabbat players show up relatively on-time next session, please feel free to stop by and observe some of the more sublime aspects of playing Sabbat at the beginning of next session. If you still have serious misgivings about these two issues please post more comments here, and I will do my best to allay your concerns.

Hey guys, I am really busting my ass to get things together for this cross game party. John and the OU ST have been busting their ass... I am trying to get an accurate count of people coming... Once again this party is April 7 at Oakland University... If you have any questions please email me...

To be honest, as a player the others can outnumber us by a million as long as they were not rampaging through the streets killing anything that moves. On a side note good luck on your Thesis John. Well anyway I just want to incourage the current Quasi Sabbat genre storyteller to do his best to keep the "others" under control. Last game was great. Hats off to all the Storytellers, narrators, and of course players. Have a good day, and may the infernal fires of hell be just around the corner always. bye

I've got a question for everybody. Why is it that Fortress attracts so many players who don't want to play Camarilla vampires when it's supposedly a Camarilla based game? Once again in the Fortress game, the Camarilla has been besieged by an inordinate number of either Sabbat, Independent, or Anarch vampires. I miss games where it's political first, everything else second. Now that there's the everything else dominating the scene, it's not really much of a Camarilla based game anymore. I'm sure if anyone actually bothered to count at the last game, the "others" outnumbered the Camarilla by quite a few.

I would like to take this time to thank the powers that be within the Cam., and especialy Mr. Cochron, for working with we Independants to work out our currant differances. I do hope this will lead to only good and posative thigns for both of us.

Fuzz Multiple choice #1: Would destroying two skyscrapers and killing 216 people be considered a breach of the:

A) First Tradition

B) Second Tradition

C)Third Tradition

D) Fourth Tradition

E) Fifth Tradition

F) Sixth Tradition

Fill in the blank: This person has the ability to tear a Meijer gas station attendant in half with just his fingernails and teeth, but he doesn't have the smarts to stay off the security video: ______________

Short answer: 500 gallons of propane stolen from Meijer somehow found their way into the fire extinguishing system of the downtown skyscraper that was destroyed. To what purpose was this propane intended?

Essay question: The perpetrator of a major national crime is a member of a group in which you are the leader. It is a secret organization and the person cannot be allowed to expose the others. What would you do?

maybe.... just maybe... the pros weigh better than the cons...

i just wanted to ask all you so called independants, is is the life of a...for lack of a better word, "criminal", worth endangering the lives of the rest of you?

OOC: I'm not coming into lansing this weekend... if there's anything important to discuss, get a hold of me... there are ways...

As per the acknowledged deal: I am, as well, acknowledged by the prince. Now, as far as Billy Bob goes, I have seen no proof of his wrong-doings. I have always waited to form my own conclusion on matters instead of taking someone else's notions. I won't be venturing into the city this weekend, I have some loose ends to tie up elsewhere.

Cool Cypher! Then if you all are recognized behave and we aint got to dance. Good point Angus, the Prince can decide to not give us statis or a PRim seat. However, I have status in this City from a couple former princes. I guess I shall see were I stand Tommorow eh? So now that we are all cool I got to ask 'ya somethin. You boys know Billy Bob, obviously he's a bud. I can dig that. But you all know what he did. (Hell I havent been around for months and I heard what he did) Why you all stickin up for him? I guess that is the one thing I still dont get. We 'Grel our loners man. If the situation was reversed he would let you boys fry. Just food for thought. We will talk face to face tommorow. Latahs...

Arnold, the reason you're growing weary of us is because you dislike your clan when we don't. You would have an outsider represent you on the Primogen Council. You might have exceptional physical prowess, but you are a poor excuse for one of our clan. Also, I wouldn't be proud of being in the city the longest. Lastly, Cypher, I doubt you'll be able to get ahold of Arnold's sire, SINCE ARNOLD KILLED HIM. If you support the Camarilla so vehemently, Arnold, you'd know killing one's sire is somewhat frowned upon, regardless of reasoning.

fine, I see that you own blood is lost. Well here is what is what will happen. She will be exposed. I will find, and capture her. I will then mail her pile of ash to you with a lovely sympathy card

well dumb@$$ you cant thereaten me with right of destruction. and further more loving me , ha , you just want to keep me under your wing like a child . well you know what. I AM NOT A CHILD. and i will not be treated as such. and for the last time NEVER mention her again. this quarrel is between you and i and maybe atkins too cause you both really piss me off. now the time for talk is nearing its end and i grow weary of the both of you.

ARGUE AND BITCH IN EMAIL MY Lord...

I am tired of arguing with you. If you will not wisen up I will contact your sire, and make him invoke the rite of destruction. You are a stain on the honor of us all, and I will not abide by your TREASON. That is what you are doing. You are a traitor to you line, and those who claimed you as one of their own. I serve only the brujah clan, and love you dearly. Please change, but hear me. The girl will be exposed, and you know that an affront of this magnetude can not be allowed to stand.

i am not argueing and yes i am a neonate. at least we have established the fact that your brain now functionaly works.

enough arguing. Arnold you are a noenate

first off, the matter with christine is closed. second , the way teo handle this is astonishing, i cant believe that you dont even trust your own clan. third , i , not you atkins, or you cypher , have been in this city the longest. i believe that i know what is best when,and if,you prove yourself to me maybe then i will show the slightest glimmer of respect until such time i DON'T care.

just a quick not Cliff. Weather we are cam or independent is not just up to us. it is upto us. me, you, or any other of our kind. it is up to the Prince of the city. and yes I did stand before our city prince and he welcomed me to this great city. and also told me that I was to be called a independent, and explaned to me what that ment. If the prince of the city wants us to be Cam instead of Independent then by all means do so. and lets us have our say like the other clans. Its not our choice as Grel to be independent or Cam. It is the rule of the Prince. So as a last note what you are telling us is that sence you are Cam is that meaning that the Prince has let the Grel clan to have a seat? if not then you are a independent willing to Ade the Cam when needed.

Cliff, for your information we are all of the accepted.

OOC. Grrrrr too tired tongiht to come up with some good banter LOL

America was formed away from Britian, not within the same territory. A better example would be the civil war were the south tried to remove themselves from the United States. That is what you have done. As for the 'grel being independent I aint going to say this three times, everyone of us is different. Xavier left the choice to us two years ago. (And two years is hardly a "Long Time" in Vampire terms) Hell son I have been away for a few months now with Xavier, he did call a gathering you know? I think I can testify fairly on what the man was thinking. I am Camerilla. What I meant, Angus, by saying "lettin you back in" was exactlly that. The Gangrel helped form the Camerilla. We our one of the original 7. If we are true "Independent" thinkers then one Gangrel, even one as powerfull as Xavier, can not make the choice for all of us. That would be erasing our history with the Cam. Aint going to happen. 'Grel hold primigon seats in many cities man. The choice on wether or not you are Camerilla lies with you. If you choose to remain independent that is fine with me 'bro. Just get recognized by Zach and we will not have a problem. However, break the rules like Billy Bob and that when shit hits the fan. I guess I can summerize what I am trying to say in these couple points:

1: It is up to each individual Gangrel to determine were his or her loyalities stand.

2: If you choose to be independent from the Camerilla that is fine. Just dont start up a nation in the same territory. That is how wars start. (United States Civil War for example)It is insulting and makes Zach look week in the eyes of the Camerilla.

3: Independents can still be recognized by Zach. (If they are truely INDEPENDENT, Meaning not envolved with some other political organization) Recognized vampires are safe from the Scourge of the city.

4. Recognized Independents are guests in the city. If they break the rules of the city they are subject to the punishment as mandated by the laws of the city.

I sincerely hope that things will begin to cool down on this whole "cam vs. independants" issue. And Mr. Ice, please, if you have a problem with our location of residence, act rationally and contact us so we can make further arrangements. When children fight over toys, blood is not shed, so why do we, as adults, act more irrational? As the supernatural life within Lansing, it should be our top priority to keep the Masquerade with-held. I'm not saying that we should bring instant death to the breachers of it, but instead, to work together to cover up any past incedences, and to avoid any future breaches. All of this can be easily resolved with no harm to any. I only hope that the light of this fact will strike the minds of those who seek to issue death, and that we can come to a peaceful agreement. Lansing is a large enough area, and it has enough land around it, to be able to maintain all of our needs. Why should we slaughter ourselves when there's a better way?

Let is all make sure we do not take what we may or may not know out of game into the game.

Actually, this is more of an intraclan dispute than something that is between multiple clans of the Camarilla. Having a non-clan member as your Primogen tends to cause problems such as these.

Hmmmmmm do you see all this bickering and problems within the Cam? (how can you not?) It never stops.. it is not a wonder people are wanting to leave such Chaos to exist in a more hospitipal way. May I suggest that the Camarilla look in to cleaning up it's own yard before worring about anothers. For evidence of this I would like to point out the posts that have been on here for the last few days.. I have noticed that the poponderance of the messages that have been violent and threatening in nature are those of Camarilla membors, with only a select few exceptions. and the posts from we, the Independants, have been non-hostile. What more perfect example and reason could you posable want for any logical Canites to want to align themselves with a less complicated, violet, holtile and power hungy enviornment?

*Awaits the Hostile and argumentative responces, feeling sure he will not be disapointed*

By the way.... any Canite that would be interested in joining us in our sanity please contact me or another one of the Independants, WE work togeather and if your not happy your are free to leave without fear of retribution so long as we are given advance notice. :)

For the first time, Cypher has made a good point. When, not if, our "Primogen's" true lineage is discovered, those of our clan who have supported her will receive some... unpleasentries. Arnold, if you support the Camarilla so vehemently, you'd know it doesn't solve intrasect disputes by resorting to violence, that is a Sabbat practice. You'd also know Brujah stick together, and those posing as us are usually dealt with in the same fassion as those who attend Rants but are not of our lineage. Lastly, are you trying to form a new bloodline? What is this Brujha 'clan'?

hey webster if you dont like the way i spell you can come talk to me the old fashioned way with fist ,you pansie. and further more it isnt your f'n cam cypher it belongs to all of us, so the correct possesive would be our cam. and if you dont like the way i run this clan you can kiss off i dont carre if you are older or more famous i decide because i have been here the longest. cypher,if you want, i will knock that fame right out your @$$ and as for webster if you plan on haveing any decent conversation with me maybe you should leave your e-mail. if you are a member of my clan then you shouldnt be AFRAID of what you say.

Arnold, its BRUJAH!!!!!! And further more, it seems to me that your own true nature deceives you. You say she is accepted as Brujah, but you did not say that she was truly a Brujah. Perhaps you should listen to your heart. Anyways, back to the dictionaries.

The Brujah clan as a whole are part of both the cam, and the sabbat. The brujah clan is greater than any one city. The fact that you are allowing the imposter to pose as a Brujah is a public insult to all of us. If you don't take me seriosly then perhaps when you have elders breathing down your neck you will take my words of advice into consideration. Test her blood, and see the truth. If you do not, and my aurgument stands then you are allowing a gangrel control the Brujah within the eyes of my clan, and thus the people in the positions of power might find it to their best interest to test her. Honestly if I let one of the Malkavians take control of the Tremere family would the regent be raising holy hell? Honestly this is very humiliating

To ALl i expect that the matter with christine is closed she is a brujha and has been accnowledged as one of us. In my eyes and to the cam. she is brujha. if the other brujha dont like it they can talk to me. and i expect them to. If you wish to inquire further i will be forced to take drastic action.

at this point in time I would like to remind everyone in the game that this message board is
PUBLICLY ACCESIBLE.
everything that you've said here is quite possibly being viewd by the FBI, NSA, and the society of leopold.
I know some of you havn't been around long enough to know about this... but certain people have heard this argument enough times to know that everything said here is not secure, and completely IC. Thank you, and have a nice day.

I haven't had alot of time to catch up on all the reading on this board, but I have caught on to one thing. I announced the bloodhunt in a meeting with the Primogen council who were supposed to disseminate that to the various members of their clans. Nevertheless I shall do so now. Billy Bob is bloodhunted for breaching the First and Second Traditions the first charge I cannot go into on this message board due to the intense scrutiny placed upon all of us as a result of his breach the latter in the matter of the destruction of lives and property within the domain of the Ventrue and Elysium. On the breach I do have (an approved) video evidence which I will pass to Mr. Mordane to display to those who have doubts about the nature of Billy Bob's actions.

I expect the Gangrel associated with Billy will assist in the cleanup of his mess after they are presented with the truth. Responsibility for ones own actions is after all one of the pillars of independence and self-reliance.

If you wish to test my words then there must be a way to test her blood. It is disrespect to the Brujah clan to leave it this way. How can the cam relly on it's members if it cannot relly on it. Cypher

I am the Primogen of Clan Brujah, meaning I AM A BRUJAH... I am Camerilla loyal, standing as primogen and following the traditions and the guidelines that Cochran sets forth... I also do not wish his death. I am clan loyal, saving Arnold from a shoveling... I am a good sire teaching my childe everything I know. Atkins, I have been recognized by the prince as a Brujah and by further stating that I am not you are second guessing the princes wisdom. Also if I was a Gangrel as you incorrectly state then I would be stepping up for Billy Bob at this point, but instead I am of the belief that he has dug his own grave because of his blood hunt called on him and the battle he has chosen to take with the Garou. Also, I do not believe the independants need to respect our blood hunt, but our domain (When in Rome do as the Romans do...) As long as you choose to be in our domain then you can expect to live by our rules, the Camerilla Traditions including blood hunt. Also, in response to how America was formed... Maybe because I was around but anyone with a good history class under their belt should know that there was a great deal of battling between the Native Americans and the White men. Also when the South decided to seceed, the north went after them and a war ensued to get them back...

OOC: sorry about the 3 posts my computer was being funky

The grel have been independent for a long time now. Infact then I went before the prince Zackery was acting in his place and he told me that he and the cam recognized me, but the Grel does not have a place in the Cam. That the Grel have been independent for along time. So that’s all I am saying that I am independent. And as far as forming a nation as far as I know the people that have chosen to be independent have done so of there own free will. And there is no true in depended nation. We all are to each our own. And there is no reason why we an independent can’t meet as independents and talk to have fun. Just like the cam dose. Or the Bruja . Or any other clan for that mater. I as an independent I don’t want a war to break out just because someone desides that independents are bad. From what the Prince told me the independents have been here for along time. So what has changed that makes the Independants bad now??? I really would like to know. And PLEASE STOP CALLING ME AN ANARCH. I AM NOT. I am just using the name that the Prince of this fine city gave me. An Independent Grel.

The grel have been independent for a long time now. Infact then I went before the prince Zackery was acting in his place and he told me that he and the cam recognized me, but the Grel does not have a place in the Cam. That the Grel have been independent for along time. So that’s all I am saying that I am independent. And as far as forming a nation as far as I know the people that have chosen to be independent have done so of there own free will. And there is no true in depended nation. We all are to each our own. And there is no reason why we an independent can’t meet as independents and talk to have fun. Just like the cam dose. Or the Bruja . Or any other clan for that mater. I as an independent I don’t want a war to break out just because someone desides that independents are bad. From what the Prince told me the independents have been here for along time. So what has changed that makes the Independants bad now??? I really would like to know. And PLEASE STOP CALLING ME AN ANARCH. I AM NOT. I am just using the name that the Prince of this fine city gave me. An Independent Grel.

Just a note to Cliff. I am not trying to be rude when I say this so PLEASE dont take it that was but you stated that the prince might even let up "back in the Cam." how can we be let back in to something that we never were a part of?

The grel have been independent for a long time now. Infact then I went before the prince Zackery was acting in his place and he told me that he and the cam recognized me, but the Grel does not have a place in the Cam. That the Grel have been independent for along time. So that’s all I am saying that I am independent. And as far as forming a nation as far as I know the people that have chosen to be independent have done so of there own free will. And there is no true in depended nation. We all are to each our own. And there is no reason why we an independent can’t meet as independents and talk to have fun. Just like the cam dose. Or the Bruja . Or any other clan for that mater. I as an independent I don’t want a war to break out just because someone desides that independents are bad. From what the Prince told me the independents have been here for along time. So what has changed that makes the Independants bad now??? I really would like to know. And PLEASE STOP CALLING ME AN ANARCH. I AM NOT. I am just using the name that the Prince of this fine city gave me. An Independent Grel.

Cliff: take a moment and think how Amaerica was formed.

It is really simple. Camerilla has rules to maintain order. A state with out rules and order is called Anarchy. This chaos is what we try to prevent. Sometimes we come across as "Who can beet the crap out of who" but that is the nature of beasts. Survival of the fittest. People can not just leave and form their own nation when things get rough. It is been tried many times historicaly and war has been the result each time. So continue with all the sweet talk and nice words you boys want. You think you can pull a fast one but I see through the crap. Deep down you are spoiled brats too used to gettin your way. Well as everyone knows, brats who brake the rules get a spankin. My advice to you boys is to "Talk" it over with Zach. He may even let you back in. Just dont think you can up and leave the Camerilla, start a new "Nation" in the same area, and expect us to pat you on the back and wish you the best of luck!!! Nobody is that stupid. I hope...

Dear Mr. Southerland I thank you for your words, I am doing my best to keep and maintain the higher ground and keep logic and sanity in the place it should be. I will be happy to talk peace and co-habitation of this fair city. I see no reason why any of us must resort to needlessly spilled blood. You are more then welcome to contact me privatly so we can hopefully get this whole mess straitend out before it all explodes in our faces. and no one wins when that happens.

If a password thing is going to be installed, please intall a spell check too, all these grammatical errors are giving me a headache. Thanks.

I have not made myself known to you as of lately. But I see in those of you who speak up a fire without equal. To you a proposal. Thier is a cause that demands the greatest amongst us. Those who have the mettle not only of physical ability but of mental adaptablity and strength of desire. Only those who are ready to face their own deamons, exploit opprotunity, and do what is necessary to fend off the unfair stifes of life could possibly endure even the process of selection. If you can back your words you are ensured in etrinty. Gather in one month at the front door of our meeting place at that time to prove your place.

Look at these words that grace the screen. Talking about who can kill who better. Do not doubt the time of Reckoning is here, and the greatest awakening ever is near. Yet instead of trying to make our differances quaint to the magnitude of this world changing event, most try to boast thier case as leader and warlord. Can we really be called Kindred when our monsterous selves are let loose in the political senate of Elyisum? With a bloody knife of black obsidian make driven into a back of one's enemy, we step into this new age with bickering blinding our eyes. I fear that this may end up like one of those "gang" wars in the urban wastes of America. One institution assasinates a member of another, and the latter does the same to the former, this contiues untill the street is filled with our bodies, and pious men named Leopold ride in the street. Mr. Louis Cypher, out of all these beasts that roam our suburban surronding, you are the most level headed. Perhaps if we consult our wants for peace can come true besides them being our death thoughts.

Miss DeVenco, your willingness to be objective is refreshing. If you are sincere in your wish to discuss matters, I'm sure your plee will be considered.

I don't particularly feel like dancing... with anyone. I prefer to talk things out in a civil manner. I'm sorry that someone is allegedly posing as you, Atkins. But there is nothing I can do to stop that. Of course, I know that you're not blaming me. Now, I propose that we try to resolve all of this professionally... and by that, I don't mean aiming well. There are a lot of things to be discussed, and a lot of wrongs to right... -on all sides. I think that what the overall society needs right now is understanding... and the demolition of ignorance. I hope things can be achieved.

As you all probably have guessed I used to be Scourge. At that time anyone who did not have Camerilla Status were hunted out by the Scourge. Guess what Circle-Jerk club? You all pretty much fit that catagory. So I got good news and bad news. The Good news is the Scourge is just supposed to take those without status in front of the Prince. The bad news girls is I aint the Scourge, yet... Therefore if you decided to piss in my yard (For the spank who is found of spelling things out, "My Yard" refers to Lansing, Michigan in the United States of America) we will dance. Zach deserves better that this people. You boys and your little romper room is just a huge insult to the man.

Up until this point, I was pleased to see the unnecessity of passwords for the message board. However, I'd be happy to change that opinion if people want to abuse the current non-password situation by forging posts. There are ways to determine who did it IC, but it's impossible if there's no OOC evidence trail which there would be with passwords. SO KNOCK IT OFF!

It's nice to see how childish some of the ciy's vampires are. The previous two postings under my name were not written by myself. To whomever posted under my name, the grammer and punctuation was atrocious. Perhaps you should better observe one's writting style before you try and delve into forgery?

casey, i believe i can help you with the whole who is mr.ice thing. E-mail me back so we can talk or you could just log onto your msn messenger amd talk to me that way.

Also, just because we've point out the fact that Cam wouldn't help us in our version of any such "bloodhunt"... it doesn't mean we've issued any. We have no reason... -yet...

Somehow... I think that people don't understand the facts. 1. We, Independants, have joined together to form our own society. 2. Within our society, there is no defined leader. Billy Bob has been a moderated guide to us, and for that, we respect him (as well as each other). 3. We are not Sabbat. 4. We are not Cam. 5. We are not Anarchs. 6. None of us seem to know why there is a Blood-Hunt on Billy Bob, or if there even is one. 7. None of us seem to know who the fuck Mr. Ice is, and why he's getting stingy about our pre-arranged living quarters. 8. We are not helping in the Blood Hunt on Billy Bob. 9. We are not Cam, and so do not have to help the Cam with their blood hunt on Billy Bob. 10. If we were to declare death upon someone in the Cam, the Cam would not aid us in delivering death to that member. 11. Not everyone in the Independant society is a Grel. 12. Grels are not Garou. 13. We intend no malice, lest we are shown malice. 13. We've been shown malice. 14. Not every Grel is Independant. 15. I have toe-nails (I figured since I've had to spell everything else out... I might as well add that little fact in there)... IF THERE IS ANYTHING ELSE... ASK IT, BUT PLEASE, DO IT KINDLY, CIVILLY, AND RESPECTFULLY.

My War with with Billy Bob and his minions. I do not know who this Cliff person is.

Actually Cliff it is not your choice t me Camarilla or Independant.. you ARE indepentant and are NOT Camarilla, that was decided by a Grel tougher then you or I will ever hope to be. and if they accept you so well. why are you not considers a Prim? you choose your own path, and I respect that.. so respect my choices as well, I do not have to like your and you do not have to like mine. and a word of advice.. don't mess with Billy Bob... most of the licks in the city do not fear him for no good reason.. and I am sure he would gladly accept any honorable chanenge you would be so kind to make to him in person. :)

You aint the only person who can type in fancy colors BOY. Got some things to get off my chest. First of all Billy Bob aint speekin for me. I am Gangrel and speek for myself. Second Xavier doesnt speek for me either. He left the dession up to each individual. Which brings me to my next point. Since when does 'Grel have a "Leader"? We are independent not only from any society but from each other. I am Camerilla. I obey the prince of the city. Not because I am "spineless" or stupid, but because I am loyal to those who found and raise me. Cypher you speek about Clan loyality??? We 'grel embrace those we feel like and let them fend for their own. Sounds loyal to you? Fuck it man were Beasts. Survival of the fittest! If you boys want to form a little circle jerk club thats fine with me. IT will make it easier to find you fucks if you keep messin with me and Zach. As for the position of Scourge, I nominate ME. I think my past record speeks for itself. If it is some type of challange you want then name it. I think I would like to dance with Billy Bob. Dont like the fact that people seem to think he is tougher than the Dead Man. Boy we will dance, and I will make you Famous.

By the way that for for the flea ridden Mrs. Ice

You said that before. or are you too brain dead, as your kind tend to be, to remember?

War Has now been declared on the ones in my territory.

Frankly Mr. Atkins I do not give a rats ass what Cliff is doing or how he is doing it. it concerns me not. You and some others seem to be of such small minds, are we not all the chidren of Cain? would it not make more sence to work togeather for survival in a world that is already much to violent, then to have our petty fights and squables and actualy learn to work togeather for the greater cause, Our over all survival?? I remember an incodent not too long ago that I and the then Sheriff Arnold, the Prince and another Canite, the Canite was more bent on trying to show some breach to the price that the Sheriff had made to make some sort of name of himself then to work for a common good and do what he could to cover up said breach. I spoke with the Prince at that time and we both agreed that the wiser path would to have worked togeather to keep the Masqurade intact than to go off spouting "Breach Breack" from the higest peak. why is it so hard to keep that general spirit alive? are our differant Ideals and opinions greater in importnace than our survival? look we have many differant clans with differant beliefs, thoughts and systems of orginazation, yet they find a way to work togeather for ohe betterment of all our existances and you can blanked it with some name be it Camarilla, Independant or whatever. Granted we are all going to have differnaces of opinions ans beliefes be they general or spacific, I will point out the issues with the Brujah for example, and I am sure they will work it out in the way they choose, but over all they both would choose to live than to die. so final death is but a last resort. perhaps down the line they will form a close friendhip, perhaps not. In that same light why is it that we all chilren or Cain work togeather in a like manor and have all of us survive and perhaps find a way that our differances can make us stonger instead of weaker?

It seems that half a brain you possess, Cypher, is severely impaired.

Seneschal I have no need to fight with the Camarilla and have no intention of doing such. I intend to strengthen the Brujah. I do not need to weaken the Cam to do so. Cyrus. . . indeed your sharp attacks to my personality do not anger me. Indeed you cause me no trouble. If you think I am so violent then please you must understand that there is no reason for such unfounded beliefs. You talk of once great clan. That is offensive. The Brujah have proven their ability in all fields. Look at the Sabbat to see our triumphs. Indeed, what do you know of our clan traitor! Also on a side note Christine is a Gangrel, and is poseing as a Brujah prim. I bring you words of peace. Accept them, and avoid conflict. If you do not I will be forced to attack, and I do have alot of aliies. With all due respect dear prince I am the only brujah with a brain in the city who does not wish all of you dead so I WILL call myself as I wish.

well,ex marine cypher,the only way i will join is if you stop trying to force me, the more you push the more i push back and i can deff. push harder then you ever wil as for the tory justicar please do bring her she will inevitably find that this whole city is screwed beyond belief thanx to all my followers for wanting me back as sheriff but i feel that right now wouldnt be such a great time for me to take the reigns. this petty bickering must stop all you are doing is making tempers flare. that is indeed a foolish act. jacod Mr.kite we need to talk and bek we also need to talk so e-mail me A.S.A.P. and cypher,the ex marine, we also need to talk the incident at the rally was not called for you could have at least asked me first , not that i would have said yes but at least ask first. as for my bonds to another kindred that is of NO concern to you, dont threaten her or me (we are one and the same. hurt her in any way shape or form and clan ties meen nothing.

Research how your "group" fairs in the Anarch Free States. This supposed sanctuary for the Independents and Anarchs is under siege, and the Camarilla and some other group is quickly gaining ground. The reason for the swelling numbers here is due to whining neonates who think the Camarilla system is unfair or unjust. You and the other Independents should speak with Cliff. He understands how the system works and how to co-exist with it. He's an exemplary model of how the unaligned are expected to act.

A note of possable intrest to Mr. Atkins. incase you have not noticed, our numbers are growing and yours are shriking ever wonder why? and sence we do not force anyone to join or stay agenst there will. Honestly I think your just afraid. and that is why your trying to make a big stink over nothing.

Perhaps you should simply be appreciative of the fact Prince Cochran tolerates your presence in his city at all. Other Princes would have had their Scourge or Sheriff remove you immediately. If this were not a Camarilla Domain, your Blood Hunts might concern us. However, as this is still a Camarilla Domain, your Blood Hunts are inconsequential. Concerning logic, the reason you and so many others have gone Independent is due to the fact logic is not what runs the Camarilla. It is the interests of the many(The Sect) over the interests of the few(you). Now, I urge you to look at the situation out West, where your groups supposedly think they are doing well. They are not in a good situation. They are being beaten back on two fronts by two different forces. Here, your group thinks it has some sort of rights. You might had you stayed in the Camarilla. It looks hopeless for the unaligned....

Please remember, Honor or and Respect are 2 way streets. if you want ot get you Must give as well.

Mr. Atins: then neither do WE!

My point is why should we respect your bloodhunts if you would not respect ours?? puts some logic between your ears.

Since when does a Prince have to be just? As long as he and a majority of the Primogen agree, his authority is final. He need not explain himself. Also, Blood Hunts are a Camarilla practice. If the Independents call one(or whatever you'd call it) in Camarilla Domain, the Camarilla doesn't care.

i wish you would decide wether you are speaking for the grel or not. it seems you are or aren't depending on the argument.

you can call my bluff if you like lou. and if you go declareing bloodhunts...i believe that is what's called war. and no retort about you eating your words...tisk tisk...i'm disappointed.

Of note.. we are not just a "Gangrel" pack. again you assume too much

that is true sir. but like I have stated before we are not all grel. there for our "pack society" dont aply to them. but we all work togeather.... kinda like the clans in the cam...dont you think

My point is that of last week (game week) I was scourge and I was not made aware of ANY bloodhunt on Billy Bob or anyone else, so I have yet to hear it from the Prince's mouth that there even IS a bloodhunt, so in my fair estimation there is not one. Another questoin.. if we are to abide by Camarilla law when it come to a bloodhunt, does that also mean in all fairness that if we call a bloodhunt that you of the Camarilla will honor it?? on one of our membors as well as one of your own??? Hmmmmmmmmmm

and cypher said nothing about the other indies he clearly said grel

from what i know of grel pack society the alpha is the leader.

yes Billy Bob is the "highest ranking" of us grells but there is more clans that have gone independent. 4 if I recall right and he is not there "highest ranking". so he is not our leader. just the "highest ranking" Grell in the independents.

just simple deduction. the "highest ranking" does imply superiority, which by my definition is a leader, one in charge. if you want to get into a battle of literal interpratations of words...thats fine. and as for the validity of the bloodhunt...WHAT THE HELL DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

Not sure Pete.. some Brujah. and PS. this is WAY too much fun!! hehe

what are you talking about Jacob? why are you putting words in to Cyphers mouth? he never said that Billy Bob was our "Leader" he just said he was the highest ranking grell and would hold the prem spot. please try to recall all the information before speaking your mind. its people like that that start un-nesessary wars.

OCC...there two cyphers correct? dave is one...but who is the other?

Are you Illerate as wll as Ignorant?? I quote "And of course the highest ranking of a clan is the Prim. So in our case that would be Billy Bob." Were in there do YOU see hte wolrd "Leadre"???? *hands him glasses* nad get a calender, I went independant after the suposed" blood hut" was called. and how to Independants "leave"??? and if there is no Proof and hense just reason for a hunt to be called we have a unjust Prince, which I do not belive we have. this will be resloved in an intelligent manor of which you kind sir do not seem capabe of. *Bow*

for your information cypher...you said he was your leader so he should have a seat at the council. as fr the validity of the bloodhunt...are you questioning the princes athority? last i checked the prince doesn't have to explain himself to independants who decide they want to leave and run off woth someone who is bloodhunted.

Well that is the maturity I had expexted.. so loyalty means nothing to you, I pitty your clan for your existance. in your ignrance you assume that Billy Bob is our "Leader" in fact there is no "Leader" we work togeather as a team. And it would truly appreciate it if somone could kindly tellme what Billy Bob did to have a bloodhunt called on him. (OOC I have heard stories of a tape, but unless the ST has approved this tape it does NOT exist)

for your information it isn't a matter of independant or ararch or fucking clan loyalty! it about the fact that your leader is a damned bloodhunted son of a bitch. the problem we have with the rest of you is that you don't care about that. that is the problem.

EXACTLY the reaction I expected! so Please QUIT bitching about us being indepenant AND having clan loyalty! Or do you not truly undestand what it means to be LOYAL to ones clan?? and PLEASE look up the differance between being "Anarch" and "Independant" and get rid of your ignorance. *Soft Smile*

it is my feeling...and i'm sure a fair amount of the rest of the council...that the only way billy bob would sit at out table...would be if it were his head on a platter.

The Gangrel left the Camarilla as per former Justicar Xavier's decision two years ago. This city already has one Primogen who shouldn't be, I'm sure Prince Cochran doesn't want the negative attention of having a Gangrel representative. In addition, BLOOD HUNTS CANNOT BE REVERSED SHORT OF JUSTICAR DICTATE. Blood hunts apply to any vampire within a Domain's limits as well, not just those of Camarilla citizenship. Independents and Anarchs are not immune to Camarilla rule in that sense.

as for the sherif position...i agree fully. arnold would be a great choice. thought of anyone for skerge?

OK, I have a nice little proposal to make to solve many of he currant problems. *Smile* It seems that the biggest problem I am seeing is that Billy Bob and the rest of the Gangrel are Independent and separate from the Camarilla. Therefore not subject to Camarilla rule. Simple solution Make the Gangrel a part of the Camarilla and give us a seat at your counsel and a Primogen to represent us. And of course the highest ranking of a clan is the Prim. So in our case that would be Billy Bob. So what do you think of my solution?

well if the group that lables themselfs as Anarchs is undersiege from the cam. then us and indepentents have nothing to be afraid of. For like I stated before I'm independent NOT Anarch. and as far as I have known the grell have been indpendent for a long time. now what we just state it looks what happens. whats up with that?

As was told to Zachary, Cypher is not under the protection of the Brujah. After being personally attacked by him, and pulling Arnold from the pit that he was going to bne shoveled into with Cypher present, I am asking the Camerilla to call a blood hunt on him. I believe anyone committing crimes against another kindred, attempting to force an active Cam member (Arnold) in to Sabbathood, and attacking his primogen is a danger to the Camerilla, the Masquerade, and all kindred within the city.

thank you atkins...we will have to speak more...

Just Atkins is acceptable. Anyway, if the Sheriff, of whom no one knows his name, is in league with one who violates the Traditions, perhaps a new Sherrif is needed? I hope Arnold is in the running. He seems to be on the right side and quite capable of the position. You seem to be a competent man, Jacob. A nice change.

Gettin tired of people jabberin. There is a Blood hunt on a member of my clan. I want to know why. Angus I dont know you so I will hold judgement. Just talked to Atkins so I know his side. Here is my opinion: You claim to respect Zach. Well nothing shows more dissrespect to a prince then declaring yourself "Independent" from the Cam under his watch. You are just itchin to start a war. I aint big on meetings, just on beetings. You continue with this Anarch crap and we are going to have words. 'Nuff said.

finnally! someone who also understands what a bloodhunt means! i'm glad we see eye to eye on this matter mr. atkins. (and for those idiots still questioning the validity of the hunt refer to my previous post.) and for those who still don't know what a bloodhunt is...well thats when a vampire does something really bad and the prince gives everyone a licence to kill on that individual, and those who help murderous and blatent breachers of the masquerade named billy bob. as for why no one was made aware of this is beyond me, and why almost no one has acted on it is beyond me still. but another point i would like to bring to light...our current sherif (of one night then was mysteriously out of town when billy bob returned) the first night (as far as i know) that he was in town he and billy bob attacked arnold myself and two other nos and then set fire two our bar...among other things that should not be siad in mixed company...but needless to say i don't really think he should be given our utmost trust. that you for your patient concideration. if there are any questions about what i've said...please get ahold of me.

Perhaps you should read Mr. Ice's post. He plainly types to Billy Bob that war has been declared on the Anarchs. Are you as oblivious as you are incompetent? I also seriously doubt all the independents and Anarchs are giving Billy Bob shelter. The regression continues.

I restate what I said. you just stated. "By associates, I refer to those who would aid him in avoiding those who hunt him." the lupines are giveing him a place to say. thats aiding him. 1/3 of the com is now independed. so I restate my last startmend you will have to try and kill 2/3 or more of the supernatral present in this city. (what part of your words dont you understand)

Are you so dense as to interpret my words as to everyone who has met with the damned? I suppose I have to spell things out for many in this Domain. By associates, I refer to those who would aid him in avoiding those who hunt him. It seems the vampiric gene pool is suffering a massive regression(I'll probably have to explain what that means as well...).

just a quick note to Atkins. if "Associating with anyone who is blood-hunted is grounds for termination under Camarilla law" that means you have to lill the independents, the lupines, the harpy( he talked to billybob and said he would thing abou t joining) and over 1/2 of the cam who talked to him about joining. are you going to take out 3/4 of the supernatral present in this city? I think that you are thinging with your fist and not your head. there is no reason that we all cant live side by side. and for the bloodhut I myself have heard nothing of this. who called it, and what did he do to have it called?

Greatings all. I to did see a agreement between the lupines and BIlly Bob. Infact one was present when Billy Bob was atempting to get members, even help get members for the independents. We are not looking to start a War. all we ask is to be left to our own. I haven't been in this city long. but from what I have seen this city needs some help. sence I have been here we have had 2 princes. 3 different meeting places for the cam. Why can't the Cam, the Independent's, and the lupines live togeather? We still understand the rules we must follow and decendents of Cain. but look at this. we all some from one creator and now what, we all fight each other over things that could get worked out in ways other than War's. I have live more than a few 100 years, not because I was a fighter but because I was smart and could always gome to a agrement with other factions. In my homeland of Scottland, the greatest power came form the differet clans. and when things got bad the clans pulled togeather to help each other. and after it was over they all returned to there own lands. (after a great party). just to say we see us as independent NOT Anarch's. thats like saying Cam, and sabot. so as to MR Ice, how i am not knowing just who you are. but like I said Billy Bob spook to a highlevel Lupine and he gave us his word that we could use the woods where Billy Bob pointed out. Now I know that Lupines and Kindres dont always get along. but as a scottsmen my word is my vow. and on a final note. I till hold the Prince with high respect. and will address him with that respect when in his present,( and out of it ) there was no problems with any of the independents in this city untill Billy Bobs name was said now every one is lashing out at them... why?

It sounds as though some of the kindred present in Lansing still have misconceptions about kindred law. We do not abide by the judicial practices of the kine. Associating with anyone who is blood-hunted is grounds for termination under Camarilla law. Failure to assist in a blood hunt is also grounds for action to be taken. The kine premise of "innocent till proven guilty" does not apply to kindred. Perhaps instead of complaining about Camarilla judicial practices, you research our history. As for the damned, it sounds like Billy Bob has more problems than "simply" being blood hunted. It seems the lycanthropes are just as interested in his termination as we are. Good hunting to all.

Hold on a minute. Billy Bob is 'Grel? Aint nobody say nothin about that! Got to reconsider a few things... And Mr. Ice. just a reminder. I dont buy all that "Gangrel and Lupines are related bull crap." you start a war with the 'Grel well... I suggest you read my post awile back about pissin in my yard. I'll be back....

I must say... "guilty by association" has a ring of injustice in it. How about "Cam fucked up by letting ignorance reign supreme in the city"? Sounds a bit more accurate. The first that I ever knew of Billy Bob was a sort of "anarch" (independant) group leader... as to which my ideas were shifted to more of an equal-ranking society. No malice was ever intended, and all that was wished for was a sort of Utopian state for our Independant society. Now, don't get me wrong, all Strong Camarilla Followers, ignorance is not bad... it's when you let it run wild that it becomes stupidity, and that's when corruption reigns. Upon my arrival to the city, I never knew of any "bad" individuals/groups (negative the sabbat )... and none spoke up to warn me of who I could become associated with, other than Billy Bob and Mr. Louis Cypher. What was I to think? They were the ones looking out for me. So maybe the question should not be "aren't they guilty by association"... but rather... "what can we do to create a stable system of government"? The decision, my friends, is up to you.

ok, under my currant understanding I thought Billy Bob was reliesed of the booldhunt when he agreed to help fight the spirit in the graveyard. Or is this some new bloodhunt that I was not made aware of while I was Scourge?

and Mr. Ice, we are not "Anarch" we are independant of the Camarilla, just as you and yours are. May I ask why it is that we can not live in peace? I was sure I saw you and Billy Bob come to an understading of the woods a couple weeks ago.

i believe it was mr zachary cochran our prince that told myself and my clanmate and the harpie that billy bob was indeed bloodhunted. so if there are any questions about that then you should ask him, but i pose my statement again, are they not guity by association?

This message is to the Anarchs once again i failed to geta responce last time. War is Declared on the Anarchs by your area Lupines. Those Wolf type creatures in muh Yard will be terminates this Saturday. This is your Final Warning to leave my forest. Billy bob is the known leader.

Yo Zach,

Seems I am gettin here just in time. Who the hell is Billy Bob? You want his head in exchange for me gettin my old job back? If the city is in half the chaos that this board is I am going to have a fun evening. Lets dance boys!

First of all welcome back Cliff. We'll talk soon enough I'm sure. Secondly to Arnold: Should this matter of Brujah clan justice get out of your control remember there may be elders willing to assist you. Third: Yes Billy Bob is blood hunted. It was announced... four weeks ago? Lastly: To Cypher (not Louis): Part of my job is to give advice to those in need of it. Here is yours. Call yourself whatever you wish. Name yourself Prince of America for all I care... empty words. In this case a Rose by any other name is still only the Prince of it's own aft end, as we all are when it comes right down to it, and even that title wont last unless you alter your tack.

My apologies, Arnold. Your message was misinterpreted, although it could have been worded and punctuated more accurately. Anyway, I believe I will watch Cypher get annihilated, it should be amusing, talking the talk, but not being able to walk what so ever. One last thing, the Toreador Justicar is a "she".

Ah yes, the "we're the anarchs, you are weak, we can break you" routine. *yawns* been there done that. Ask your "brothers" our in san fransisco how they're doing though. I understand their anarch free states are going quite well. Well, for everyone but the anarchs that is. In any case, for those of you who know me, I will be in New York on business for the weekend, so I will be unable to attend the festivities, as I will be meeting with the "weak" camarilla who took the sabbat's biggest city. Odd, that. Oh and Cypher dear, if you decide to respond to this post, please do so in a fashion other than "face me in the field of battle worthless coward" or "your comments deserve no response because I am the angsty brooding loner who can beat ass while you are nothing". Both are SO cliche, and really only distance your clan from its once noble heritage. good day.

Recent comments have reached me as to war with the Camarilla. There will be no such war. As a represenative of the Brujah clan I request that such blemishes be taken off, and personall apologies take place. Simply put the Cam is weak, and thus we WILL eliminate you if you represent a threat to our brotherhood. Indeed if anyone is wondering as to my intentions contact me, and I will set you strait

Arnold. I have no idea what your life expieriences have been, but you must understand that your clan loves you, and we wish to join in arms with you as a brother. We assumed your will had been subverted by the traitor you seemed bonded to. Know Arnold that though you wish us ill we indeed will treat you with respect, but your claims of blood become void upon the act of violence against me, and our brothers. My line has protected the likes of you for millinea, and we gather for war to establish a haven. We do want you, but if she holds you back we must seperate you from her.

OOC to Paul: You are stereotyping again Paul, tsk tsk tsk. Bye-bye again Zach.

There was a Time when I was a Little Kid that my dad had told me something that, unfortunanntly, got stuck in the conscience Vault. He Said "No Matter what you've done or are going to do, Always finish what you start." And I've attempted, at least halfassed, to do so. This time I can't, I can not put myself throw it anymore. I wont be showing up to LARP until I get some things worked out. Sorry but this time it's for keeps.



On a Side note John Shut the Hell up Yes I got you a ride.

and yes i am concerned with the cam more than my clan. the cam has kept me safe and let me be who i am where as my clan has double and triple crossed me as well as tryed to shovel me and now they are declareing war on all my friends that have kept me safe.... if you wish to pursue this convo further e-mail me and we will talk.

well mr atkins i wasnt refering to tyou in any way shape or form cause i believe that cypher wants to fight me and i was asking you if you wanted to watch. then ther is the matter of the whole western clan well i didnt say anything about them you just aoutmatically implied it . i was talking about the sabbat and the like. i consider this matter closed for us, and as for the tory justicar if you could bring him here it would be nice to meet him.

*Giggles with Glee* So much violence! It's lovely! Brujah fighting Brujah, a war for the existence of the Cam, and Cam members going Independant going Anarch! What's not to love?

OOC First. To Arnold's Player: A Brujah more concerned with keeping the Cam together than clan loyalties? Please! Spelled Brujah wrong

Oh dear, a fight between to warriors filled with burning ideologies takes it's toll upon the land on which they wish to control with ther black corrupted hands from which blood spews on the earth. Oh dear merciful Father above, in my darker moods I wish sometimes that you would send down the great destroyer to wipe clean our sins into a faded memory of a nightmare long past

Yo,

Back in town and got a few things to get off my chest. First thing Cypher 'Grel aint got to write in fancy colors to be heard boy. Zach, hear your the man now. Congrats! I also heard someone offred Frank. That pissed me off. You see you boys have gone and pissed in my yard. When people piss in my yard they bleed, simple as that. Seems you got a problem with these people Zach. Maybe you should consider given your 'ole buddy Cliff back his job. Bein Scourge will make what I have to do a hell of a lot more legal-like. In closin boys, step up to the plate this weekend and I'll make ya famous. See you fine gentleman again on Saturday. Lets Dance.

I do hope your post was in reference to some misinformation, Arnold. I have no interest in physically fighting, with anyone. If you are refering to our Camarilla loyal clanmates from out West as trash, I hope you're willing to deal with the consequences that entails. As for my striking power, is it relevant? I apologize as I don't have the time to waste thinking with my fists. I'm busy working for the betterment of the Camarilla. In addition, I've known Toreadors who are just as martially inclined as any Brujah. I'm sure the Justicar of the noble Toreador clan would love to hear your comment. You truly are a cornerstone for the bad reputation our clan has garnered. Lastly, Louis Cypher, I have no idea who you are. I do know who the Cypher that is a member of the Sabbat and his first name is not Louis.

This is a post concerning the Crossover witht he Oakland Larp. Mr Wilk in order for this game to work you do need to communicate to the players in your game and the St's in there game. Im Afraid Showing up for larp once a saturday isnt good enough for me as a player. I spoke to the Oakland ST and he told me you haveent contacted him once about this issue.. I have also sent you many emails and have yet to get a responce for over a month now. John you did great things for the game in the past but as of now I am a concerned player. I ask you to stepdown at Head ST and perhaps give it to someone with a bit more time. The Overhead ST isnt suppost to be in charge of the Larp either. The Ov ST is there to help out when the game is going into chaos, 2. Help the Genre St's with there plots and or Combat 3. work with the other ST's DURING THE WEEK so when you arent there things like oh Rank Six BSD's or power NPC's like that do not show up. Another issue that concerns me is us leaving fortress. Eric at Fortress has housed our Larp since the beginning. Now in the summer going out to the GArden is fine how ever I feel we should keep our business where is has been welcomed since the beginning. thanks A concerned player..

http://userdata.acd.net/emce/garou.html

The Hyperlink is to the Garou webpage/message board. This message is for the garou players seeing as which our message board died. So folks its up and running now and we shouldnt have anymore problems.

well, mr atkins i believe you can come and watch but, there is only one rule two come in one goes out . plus , i believe i will have to reschedule because i dont want to go to have to explain to our outer city comrades how i kicked you ever lovin undead @$$. besides the trash that you hang out with probably needs the time to think up a plan just to arrive on time. then there is the whole matter of you putting up a fight and all but i believe that you hit like a girl , not even a woman but, a little toreador girl (sorry no offence to the torries).i would say that if you hit a tory he would probably laugh and slap you down. now if you feel the need to approch me before the time then i will be forced to retaliate, that includes anywhere, even in public, and keeper if you would i need to talk to you as well.

To answer your question quite bluntly.. NO I am not Sabbat.. and to my knowledge I know of no one that is Sabbat. Why may I ask is everyone, or so it seems, out to make me and mine out to be something that we are not?? I have reciently learned that I am of Gangrel blood, and being that the Gangreal are INDEPENDANT.. Unless of course you and yours, Th Camarilla, would care to give us a place in your faction and allow us a Primogen on your councel. I have high doubts that that will happen. so what choice DO I have than to become independant?? Would you preferd that I be a Gangrel in you midst and as your Scourge and pretend to be something that I am not?? Is it too much to ask to atleast be given some credit for being honest with all and you with who and what I am?? which seems more than I have seen MANY of our kind do. If you choose to treat my unkindly and with disdain, please do it for something I have done to you personaly. and that is not something or heresay or second or third hand information. I have not done ONE thing agenst the Camarilla. so tell me.. why is it that I am being the focus of so much unearned hatred?. Please do enlighten me.

**ok, louis, gotcha** And you are Sabbat as well? I suppose you learn something new everyday. You Mr. Cypher are a bigger fool than I had originally anticipated. I look forward to watching the video tape of you getting a tan. Or maybe just strewn about the street, a bit messier, but nothing is to good for our Sabbat friends.

OK, once again just for the sake of clarification.

Please do not Confuse "Louis Cypher" with "cypher" we are to totaly differant people!!

Cypher, you are a fool. Do you honestly think you could usurp Mr. Cochran's authority? You aren't helping yourself by making outlandish threats like that. Furthermore, you have joined the damned ranks of the Sabbat. I advise you to leave while you are still mobile so as to avoid Arnold from thoroughly smiting you. You intraclan fame will not help you to avoid this after reviewing your actions.

well, mr. other cypher i believe you speak for yourself only. i am loyal to my clan accept when it comes to destroying the camarilla and i believe that you were the one who almost shoveled me so i believe that you have no room to talk. If you wanted me to be loyal all you haad to do was ask. not beat me down and shovel me, which by the way didnt even work. i thought that a brujha does the job right the first time , huh , some brujha you are.

War? Amusing indeed! The camarilla in the city is so weak that I could declare myself "prince" right now, and I do have the muscle to back up my claim as long as I did not impede the interests of the clans. You are all pathetic, and any attempt to undermine me may result in my well domination of the city with my brothers

Mr. Cypher, is this war you are suggesting? Amusing.

My brother Brujah are who I am speaking of. Any nonloyal Brujah will be brought to his knees by his brothers. To be sure the independants in the city may find aid in a place none would guess. Enjoy your last night of controll dear Camarilla I will miss your constant play acting, and trying to conserve loyalties to your food.

Since when has a Blood Hunt been in effect?

well...i was just thinking, since that billy bob character is officially blood-hunted...what does that say for those that are aiding him. are they not guilty by association?

Agreed, this whole situation does put me is a very difficult position. Fistly I would love to see the tapes that you have and would like to have a chance to work things out so any needed amends can be made and to work out with you for ways which will be mutual benificial, I do know of a way or two in which we can be of benifit to you if you wuold allow a few oversiteds to be made or cover ups. in this I would prefer we speak in private for reasons which will become obvious to you once we do start talking. as I am sure your aware that I am not physicly able to stop Billy Bob from doing much of anything, but I can do my best to attemt to sway him from causing too many problems. Presently he views himself as our mouthpiece, honestly because of our past personaly and as a former long standing membor of the Camarilla I feel I would be much better mouthpiece between our two factions. But if you rather deal through him directly I shall honor that. but for now I would prefer to talk with you privately (OOC Email) to discuss matters further. I thank you for your time, patience and consideration in this matter. Louis Cypher

You are in a difficult position Mr Cypher, as am I. While we both wish to follow our hearts as well as maintain our secrecy it seems your leader only defers to the former. I'll be glad to provide you with a copy of a very interesting videotape that demonstrates quite clearly his lack of regard for certain traditions.

I hold no ill will toward you. Your long standing loyalty and support for the camarilla are well noted. Hopefully you will realize after seeing the evidence that responsible action must be taken to remove the possibility of future acts against the masqerade and punishment must be meted our for past overt and senseless violations of the traditions.

First I would like to point out that we are all acknowledged.

Second we have no intent on striking out at the Camarilla. but do know tht if one of its membors attack us there life is forfit in our eyes, as is one of us that attacks you of there own volation.

Third it is the Prince that will decide what will happen on your side and I have worked closely with the Prince as well as the Regent in the past. Please remember YOU who make up the Camarilla are the one that have been the biggest part of my life for over 100 years. I refuse to turn agenst my adopted famly now, but as ever child must do, strike out on there own for a while and discover who they truly are.

Grated as anyof you would.. If I am attacked I will attack back. it is a matter of survival. I am not saying that as a threat, but as a mater of fact. a fact that exists not just for me but for all of you.

I bid you all peace and properity and may your blood supply never run out. ;)


Sincerly yours, Louis Cypher

Mr. Cypher, as former Scourge, you are fully aware(I would hope) that any unaknowledged kindred in the Domain are at the mercy of whoever the new Scourge becomes? In order to ensure non-violence between the Independents and the Camarilla, it might be prudent for the Independent kindred in the area to stay outside the Domain's boundaries. This city's vampire population is already dangerously high relative to the mortal population.

And what is it that you independent anarch people intend to contribute to the city? or are you merely existing? If relations are good, then we should have no problem, but any aggression will NOT be tolerated.

Louis, please, find me.

Test

Ok, first a comment out of Character. Please do NOT confuse ME with this other "Cypher" 2 different people!! LOL

OK In Character now!
I would like to take this moment to correct and define a few things, first Billy Bob with his lack of full understanding of the ways and terms used by the Camarilla which I have been a faithful member of for longer then more of you have been alive, has misrepresented us as "Anarch" in all actuality we are "Independent" we have no hate or vendetta or the like agent the Camarilla But rather we want to live along side but separate from the politics of the Camarilla We do wish to maintain the Masquerade as much as you. We respect you and your beliefs and only with for the members of the Cam to do the same. We simply ask f some one cares to join us if they do we ask that they swear loyalty, if they do then fin if not they can walk away without fear of retribution in any way.

Personally I left the Camarilla because I have learned of my true nature and felt it was best that I seek out my true nature.
if anyone has questions on me or us or any facet of us please feel free to contact me and I will do my best to answer your questions in a satisfactory way.


Thank you for your time.

Louis Cypher (Former Scourge)

Mr. Cypher, what exactly do you mean to imply by "You are one of US now"? Please reply in detail.

Indeed it would seem that violence is the answer. Arnold I would say that you had better watch your back given the honesty, and good nature of the kindred in general. My brother you owe your alliegance to the clan and none other take your human fetters, and scatter them to the wind. You are one of US now

Cypher... get a hold of me... you know how... find the time

If a place needs to be made one I can provide one. But under one condition....

Gentlemen, if you feel the need to duel, I have but one request, do not do it in the streets. I doubt you will be preserving the Masquerade in the heat of combat, find a secluded spot to have your challenge. Thankyou.

well ,well ,well ,mr cypher i believe that that is a challenge. As in all cases , especially yours i accept your challenge and i will meet you in the streets in oh lets say two weeks from when the "meeting" convenes. Now as with all brujha tussels i expect that you will bring no one but a spectator, and nothing else. We will talk later.

I see that the camarilla is no longer a proper base of operations from which I may work. I am afraid I will have to draw closer to my other brothers. Know my brethren that any member of the Brujah clan who does not give his alliegience fisrt to his clan may find his blood forfiet.

So, all the "independents" are merely Anarchs, eh? Well well, that is most unfortunate. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Really bad form.

Mr. Ice Do they really need to know this? You give them weapons against us.

does anyone have "BillyBob's" e-mail address or some means of contacting him? I have some questions...

Know Thine Enemy! For it is not enough to merely know the enemy, but one must know of the enemy, its weaknesses and vulnerabilities. From there, burn and topple, shatter and rend . . . for it is a lie that only in creation is there worthy purpose. Understand the virtue in destruction . . . realize the fulfillment of desolation.

hey luise, make sure you right that "thing" for me. OK?

So Many going Anarch these days. What is a prince to do?

So Many going Anarch these days. What is a prince to do?

Although I attained no real "status" within the city, I would like it to be known that I am going independant. If there are questions of my motives, feel free to inquire, else-wise, I shall be bowing out of the Camarilla. Thank you for your hospitality. -Also, Mr. Wing, I will still work with you and your troubles. Contact me.

Out of the darkness caused by so many evils shall emerge a figure who shall walk the line between righteousness and insanity. Beware those of you who oppose him, or attract his attention, he is not bound by his own thoughts, but by a cause of purification............

Sorry for the out of character, but I have a friend that is into Magic the Gathering, and is looking to build a kick ass, functional angel deck, using any new and old angel cards. Any suggestions, or listings of such cards, please send to SirHawkDS@aol.com !! Thanks, guys!!

Nothing in common with the Anarchs? Odd, I thought the Anarchs had no respect for the way Camarilla business is conducted. You seem to have emulated that rather well when I introduced myself.

Elders should be wary. While few hold power, many may rise up and defeat kings as they did in the tiles, when men dug up my bones and drank from my skull.

As far as the 4th floor thing, i was unhappy with the arrangement, albiet i was allowed to louinge about, seeing as it was MY elysium. It would appear that i no longer have a need for the Camirilla within the city of Lansing. I have formally decided to go Independent, mayhap i will travel a bit. I will return to the city when things are more stable. But before i leave, i will request a meeting with Alexander Mordaine. PLease call me to arrange furthur. Goodbye all.

Would these "wolf type leeches" be the Gangrel that you are accusing me of because I have nothing in common with the Anarchs...

This message is to the leeches living lext door to me. Would the wolf type leechs who call them self Anarchs please get away from my home. See folks you happen to be in my Yard and you will have 1 week to get out of my yard. If you are not gone within 1 week I will declare war on you and with help destroy all of you. So Billy Bob and family please leave my yard at once.

the 4th floor was somewhat corruptive to the game... but.. even *I* found something to do after a while...

Whats this, the neonates want rights? oh my... what has this 'cammerila' come to. If the Elders of the city wish to have a meeting in a private room then then why shouldn't they. You havn't any need to know the cities operation, its your primogens job to let you know what you need to know, so choose wisely. If you want more of a say or you want to know more get a position or some status... but i don't see why half of you are allowed to be primogens let alone hold other office.

What are you talking about?! Buildings are ordered structure, so there'd be A LOT of weaver spirits. Then there's the leeches, so there'd be A LOT of banes too. Rumor has it a rite was performed there too...

and technically that building shouldn't have even had a spiritual representation in the umbra to begin with heh.

I apologize for the inconveinence that the 4th floor thing caused. It was used differently than originally intended. It was supposed to be for the meetings of the cabinet members, and for the Prince to hold private meetings in. It was NOT intended to exclude most of the Kindred of the city. Or to be used as a lounge for high ranking idividuals. Elysium is going to be moved. I apologize again.

I also agree with there being a place designated for city business, but I think having something like an entire floor set apart would be difficult, unless you used the back room of the basement at the Fortress. However, should a big wig decide to decend upon Lansing and not be allowed entry to this floor, bad things could start happening. I do disagree with acknowledged kindred with more status than "Cabinet" members being dissallowed entry though*ahem*.

I agree with Jason on the 4th floor thing. I was unable to do very much last Saturday due to the fact the everyone that was there was on the 4th floor.But I think Elysium's going to change right?

To the Umbra! Assault the 4th Floor!

Hello all. I would like to voice my opinion on an issue. I understand that prim meetings are needed and all. I also understand the need for security. None... or well, few of us wish our characters to die final death. But at the same time it is significantly more difficult for some players to role play their characters when 95 percent of the players characters are on the 4th floor which is locked. The characters that don't have access to it, can go feed and perhaps walk arround the general E. Lansing area, trying not to look spooky and not to get arrested. Then go back to find everyone still locked in the fourth floor. Granted My character plays it up to the utmost. He can sit and meditate for hours, or do whatever. But Its does kinda irritate me. Thank you for listening. I would like to say once again I understand the need for cabinet meetings. But, I dont believe some issues need to be kept such a secret or so secure.

last time we played at the gardens was, I believe, was the weekend of November the 18th. I'm almost positive... either that, or it was December 2nd.

Well. . . sir, if you wish to call me "Bast" Im surly not against it. I could think of worse Egyptian deities to be named after. ::coughs"set":: anyways. . . first of all, I dont know you. Hence I have never seen you pop up from nowhere. Seccond, There are many kindred. . . I think thats what we're called. that pop up out of nowhere and Im sick of it.Third, because I dont know you,leave me alone.

It's very easy Bast, mind if I call you Bast? SO much more...suitable. Don't take yourneye's off me.

Hello all. My name is Bastian and as many of you know I am new to this city and this life. Aproximatly 2 weeks. But what I dont think I could ever get used to us people constantly popping up arround me from nowhere. If there is anyone that would or could possibly help me. I am looking for some way to prevent myself from being stunned by this dissapeary thingy. I dont know if its possible to prevent myself from being suprized. And I will probably have to "make a deal with the devil" in order to atain such information if it does exist. But that would be better than this constant attack on My mental faculties and any of you that i may approach within the next 2 weeks before we all meet again will hear me ranting about it in the utmost pissed off fassion. So if anyone can help me would be greatly appreciated.

As I see it this city will have a furture much like it's past if something isn't done, and quickly. I wish not to terry on this. This seems a suitable home and I would prefer not to move again as I have unpacked all of my books. This Billy Bob situation is a priority. Beware, for there are monsters brewing, and when you look into the mirror, make sure there isn't one behind you, or gorwing within yourselves.

does anyone remember the date of the last game we played at the garden?

To Ones who stalk the night, Hideous things wait for us, for these are the final nights. Our youngest and most diluted ones know it, and the people who sit on the street corners and chant prayers of revelations also feel the grip slipping into chaos and utter destruction. Men ride the battlefield to slay us, and soon they shall be accompanied by the hollow souls of the ancients. The times warned about are now on the doorstep of our time, so when he draws his blood splattered sword to destroy our evils, thanks no one but your own demons and beasts.

I know this is opening an old can of worms, but on the vampire forum, Achilli himself said the Ravnos offered nothing to the vampire ethos. I was surprised to see how many people agreed with him.

21st Century ho!

Argh confusion... it's just plain too late to change the location. Either one is fine with me but not both. I'll be at 21st Century between 6 and 7pm.

I just realized something... I've been to 21st century, and it's a cool place, but it's just not the size we need for our game IMHO.If we have a game the same size as last week it's gonna be incredibly way to small. Now it's up to John were we play, but as a player preferance we could play at the gardens, and if it gets to cold we can always get in my van and crank the heat! :)

Mind explaining to those of us who are lax on MET journals?

Page 77 of MET Journal #8, under the common equipment bullet. It's a rather entertaining excerpt.

I have arrived in this...well city I suppose it's called. I hope I and my kinsmen are welcome in this domain of Mr.Zachary Cochran.

i want brandon perkinses hott bodd!!!

Fortress is on the corner of Division and Albert. 21st Century Comics is on Grand River just passed Division going towards Okemos.

can someone post directions?

isn't 21 century on grand river?

at 21 cen.... right? (and congrats on looking good in dresses... boys...)

where are we gameing this weekend??

Yeah? And I look good in a sun dress, but I don't were one....out of the house anyway

Ok.. so what is the fee per person going to be with the new location?

Hey, i look damn sexy in a skirt

George in drag .............*convulsions*

hmm, maybe if we are playing indoors, the seneschal will be dressing in drag as opposed to the normal suit and tie........................ ventrue drag queens.....at least it's royalty.... *shudders....alot*

I am impartial as to where we play... JUST COME DRESSED IN CHARACTER!!!!! I will be bringing the camera for web-site pictures. mmmk...

Okay, now time for the renigging. It turns out I am coming to game, yes, I do accept bribes in the form of filling up the gas tank of my 32 gallon Van gas tank. So I will be returning *grumble* But I'd kinda like to play at the gardens? maybe I's crazy but -I- think it would be better atmosphere.

As a side note, could someone who actually lives in Lansing post directions to 21st Cen. from the fortress - so that everyone can find it.

In the midst of all this sadness I do have some good news. We have an indoor site for the game on this saturday. I have actually managed to book 21st century for the night. So everyone *be good* we would like to use this site again sometime. As for vamp downtimes, please send them to me as per old time rock n roll. Thanks.

Oh dear non-existent deity, the Mage game is actually balanced with the other games! Someone must have kidnapped Jess Hennig and replaced him with a vampire player.

poogas

Satan

You would dig cold places Bramik, ya fruity bird man. But if the pengiune can stomach it so can I no problem. and Damn Dave... well, this sux. But I want you to know your ST abilities will be missed by me aswell:-( Hope to see you Saturday.

i will miss you skippy, but now who will i pester all the time? bye.:(

gardens would be a bit cold.. and DAVE... WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU??? YOU ARE A GOD OF A ST!!!

i dig cold places.....

I second the :(

Dave... you rock as an ST. :sad sad kittie. . .: "Mrow"

:-(

I will be stepping down as the Vampire Assistant Storyteller, effective immediately. For all downtime questions, please contact John. If you'd like to know why, so as to not create a mess on the board, please e-mail me privately.

me say garden bad! too cold! brrrr! any other options?

Zach! The minute we leave you alone look what happens! Do we have to come back up there and kick you into line! you will be a role playing geek... ok so ya dun have to g'luck.

poogas

gardens would be fine... even with the weather. It'd be a better atmosphere for the pictures, too...

34 or 39 it matters not. For the Wendigo it's too hot.

39 degrees? i am fine with that. i have warm clothing. as long as there is sufficient room to play, places to sit, and sufficient lighting. other than that i have no requests

Zach did not talk to me about his decision. I regretfully inform you that he was my rid to larp. AS such I doubt I will be going anymore. If anyone can help me out please contact me, but don't go to too much trouble. Sorry guys it was fun. I hope the story goes well, and all. . .

You bitch! You were going to where a cocktail dress too?! Er, I mean, 39 degrees won't bother me either. It's a better enivironment for the game I think.

As a side note, the skip week is on St Pattrick's day

Thanking the players who understand the how and why this larp works. Bye Zach, hope to see you return soon in better times. As for the game this weekend - we are playing, it's just a matter of where. Is 39 degrees warm enough for you all for outdoor play? It dosn't bother me, but I haven't worn my off the shoulder cocktail dress in a while.

I'm allways dressed in character. Of course it's required less effort with my last 2 characters than with lazarus. But if you keep an eye out you'll spot the themes.

speaking of this weekend do we know where/if we're playing *looks out at the snow* I don't think the gardens are our best choice.

Hey, i always dress in character, and i like being an ass in public. But yes, bring the camera, pictures are always good.

hey people... if I bring the digital camera back this upcoming weekend... will anyone dress "in character"? Maybe it'll help you realize that it's not so bad to make an ass of yourself publicly... or maybe it'd be worth it to see Skippy in a dress...?

Yes, Zach, i agree with george...hope everything works out. I know we've bitched at each other a lot, back and forth, but its all good...

Hope that all works out for you. Bye bye Zach.

I Have come to a realization, about 20 minutes ago in fact. I as a person am disgusting, I'm a good 20 to 30 pounds over wieght, my social skills are apualing, i'm a slob. I don't have a job and I'm going to be 18 on the 20th of this month. I am to fix this situation, I have eaten the last big meal ever, I am quiting smokeing, and I'm going to evaluate myself on friends and why I'm the way I am. In short I'm quiting LARP, nothing from the past besides what I have set aside because of myself is a factopr here. I have made some terrific friends, this group of people has been a better family than my own has. I've made friends who I know I'll keep for a long time, that is if I don't fuck it up, which I'm apt to do. I will not be online either, something has come up and I'm not going to be on. When I was young I always said I'd become someone great, or invent something or do something that will leave a legacy, and so far I've done jack shit to provide that future, shit I don't even have a job. I need to get my life straight, because if I don't my mental stability will not withstand anything. I'll miss you guys alot, I'll be back eventually I'm sure of it. But until Then if you need to get ahold of me some of you have my number, the other who don't get it from them, or email me at monkalapolice@hotmail.com I'll be able to check it over at henry's possibly. I am not cutting myself off from you all, just off from the LARP, someone wants to chill or something get ahold of me. I'll be here 9 times out of 10. And as a Last note I'd like to apologize to anyone I've pissed off, annoyed or just generally harassed. I'm not asking to be forgiven, I'm just letting you know if I know now what I knew then none of it would have ever happened. Later Tater.

I believe I've been a bit misunderstood. As I tend to be even more strict about what types of characters may be played than John does, I'm not advocating a free-for-all. I'm saying that the PURPOSE of this game is for the players to have fun, not to gratify our (as storytellers) egoes.

Game on this weekend? Where ddid we decide to play it at?

i would like to get ahold of someone who has either police,underworld or street inflluences to contact me immediately. thank you in advance.

I would like to get a hold of any and all in the city who might have sway over police, or fame (and a whole lot of it)... Please contact me either via message board or e-mail. Thank you

i would have to say i wouldnt like the mages in the game there are already too many things to keep track of. the downtime thing, i wouldnt do it if there wasnt any reward. whoever really doesnt do it is just sitting there vegittating and should actually attrophy in his/her abilities. and therefore would lose abilities.

I'd have to say I'd keep doing the downtime... just because the journal I'm doing with this character is something that could become a lot of fun

Dave I agree to you, to a point. but just as our scocity has lawas we need to abide weather we like it or not, our game has to have them to. I would be willing to say that VERY few if any knows what vision the ST has for our game, and yes it is our game but we need to game within a structure that is set before us by the ST. IF we throw away that structure the the game will become pure Chaos. and that wil be fun for no one. granted if we as a whole wish something to be change ask the ST. and above all Accept his decision. JW is a smart man and he has earned alot of my respect through decisions he has made. but he is also creating this world for us to enjoy.. we are the actors and he is the producer. Let us each play our own parts.

Granted JW is NOT the only ST.. Skippy does a Damn good job as well but ask WHY is it they DO do a good job.. the have learned when to say "NO".. can you immagine what would happen if they let ayone play enything they wanted??? I gurantee that is NOT a game I would want to play!! LOL

Zachary embraced the hedge mage (he died his first night) and you (John) were running the Tremere embracing ritual at the 4-h garden. Remember now? Still you're right, no mages.

If the XP bonus were stopped I would probably only send downtime in occasionally. Only things that my character had to do solo, were utterly unexciting and/or impossible to play out for some reason would go into downtimes. I prefer to roleplay everything possible in game.

Wait a minute....this is my game too? Well Hooolleee shit! Okay Evereybody! We're all elders now!

Just a comment on the post below about this being JW's game. More than anything, this is the players' game. Not the storytellers'. The players are the ones paying to come and have a good time. It's up to the Storytellers to create a setting and rules that make the game the most fun for the players, but if we lose sight of the fact that we are there to provide fun, and provide it for the players, we have lost the point of Storytelling.

If the XP bonus for downtimes stopped would I still do them? Depends on what happened during the game and if I wanted to do anything of note during dowtime.

I do agree that a playtest of LoA would br fun (completely and totaly separate from the main game) Maybe the next off week, if someone wants to run it. As for why I am so admant about the magelessness of our game being maintained. The PC hedge mage was the previous game (before the reset in the time of spin) so there is no precedent for this game of having any magelike thingies for characters. Mage is an entirely different game with a different tone, theme, and power structure. Every genre you add to a game (without adding a comesureate number of players) takes away from the current genres. I could go on about lawn chairs and sunlight and turning air into gassious silver but I think the above reasons are by far good enough. These are pretty much the same reasons why KoE and Changing breeds don't exist in this game (or the rules inside those books). On a side note, due to personal reasons I may not be able to get to game tonight, and if I do, I most likely will be quite late. If I don't see you tonight I'll catch you next week. P.S. question of the day: If the XP bonus for downtimes was stopped, who would keep doing downtimes?

I'm all in favor of a seperate mage game, and I'd definately be interested in playing it, seeing how it goes.

but as far as our game goes, I think adding PC mages would be a big mistake. Yes, A brujah (we'll take arnold for this example) would whup any starting mage six ways from sunday in one on one combat...

Problem is that any mage with correspondence 3 and matter 3 could systematically eliminate the vampires of the city without ever being seen. Sure he takes 1 pt of paradox every time he does it... but you do 1 a week and you don't even have to worry about that. -Jason

I'm all in favor of a seperate mage game, and I'd definately be interested in playing it, seeing how it goes.

but as far as our game goes, I think adding PC mages would be a big mistake. Yes, A brujah (we'll take arnold for this example) would whup any starting mage six ways from sunday in one on one combat...

Problem is that any mage with correspondence 3 and matter 3 could systematically eliminate the vampires of the city without ever being seen. Sure he takes 1 pt of paradox every time he does it... but you do 1 a week and you don't even have to worry about that. -Jason

Sorry Peeps it is JW's Game, JW's World, JW's Rules.
Accept that.
I am sure he has his reasons for all he says, does and decrees.

Live with it, Love it, Play it!

Two votes for a playtest.

Some other arguments: For the record I am against Mages at this time or would rather see them included in the Changeling game. The rules are most similar to each other in TT as both have a very distinct Ars Magica scent to them.

If you are not familiar Ars Magica was bought by White Wolf around the time of Changeling (and afterward Mage) and allows Sorcerer to create powers as they see fit (with some limiting factors) based on categories that between all of them are meant to encompass ANY effect imaginable. While good in theory I feel it leads to a weaker game due to weaker definitions of individual spells/powers/gifts etc.

In Vampire or even Werewolf one can go back to either the rules or "case history" looking to White Wolf stories or past experience for details on EXACTLY how a Discipline works. Just the simple fact of knowing whether or not sunglasses block Dominate from working (an ancient ruling) is a phenominal example of how this works in resolving disputes. Mage in Table Top has no such defining factors and is thus HIGHLY prone to arguments over whether a specific effect is possible under the particular circumstances of its use. If it is written this way in LARP rules then I am going to have to most adamantly stand against its use in our setting. Then again I will see for sure only when a cold hard copy of the thing is in my grubby little paws. Until then I'm going to have to hold further comment.

The play test sounds like a good idea.

Okay. I've already stated my opinion on Mages, but I'd like to play devil's advocate for a minute, cuz there's a few other things to consider, I think. First off, to Adam: the infamous "turn vampires into lawn chairs" power was from 1st ed., and has been curtailed out unless you get up to pretty potent levels of power. The sunlight rote requires forces 3, prime 2, and keep in mind its vulgar, which is a hinderance. Another factor to consider is that Mages are still mortal. In a stand up fight with a brujah with celerity against a mage, the mage will probably get his ass kicked unless he has a very specific set of combat rotes ready and active. Keep in mind as well the balancing effect of paradox. Vampires and werewolves can do things that (from the mage standpoint) are horribly vulgar without any penalty. A mage who tries to match them in straight out might can do so, but runs the risk a) of the technocracy taking notice, b) the chance of literally exploding from paradox if he fucks up, and c) the possibilty of getting dragged away into a paradox realm. In another point, crossover rules for mages in TT typically involved some sort of rules for interaction of equivalent powers and the like. We'll have to wait and see, but I would suspect that they have some form of crossover rules for the two, given multi-genre LARPs do occur. I do agree with Alex though...asking whether our LARP is ready for mages IS the question at hand. Game balance is part of that, but also questions of mood, player ratios, and the like come into play. Let me throw out this offer as well: If people are interested, I'd be willing to run either by myself or with other interesting people a one shot mage game on its own when the rules come out. We'd have to figure out a place and time that doesn't conflict with the normal LARP, but it could let us take a look at the playability of the rules: what we think fo the conversion to LARP, how powerful mages are in this setting, how they fare against NPC vamps and werewolves, etc. If people are interested, let me know, and keep up the good debate.

all my esteemed and revered friends,

I would like to apologize for those that I hurt and offended when we last met. I was having a few issues in controlling myself due to some recent personal findings about myself. I apologize humbly and will attempt retrobution as best I can. I have spent my week resting and recovering as best I can both from that as well as a conflict that I got into with one of your lupine..."friends".

Until we meet again, I wish you all the best...

I forgot to mention that in order for a vampire LARP(any vampire game in general) to run properly, it needs politics. If Mage is introduced, I'm sure there'll be an attrition rate that'll be detrimental to the vampires' political scene. For those in power, it would blow because there's no one to order around. For those without power, you're suddenly thrown into a position you might not be ready for - then the shit hits the fan, and everybody blames you.

Let's put it another way, if Mages are allowed, players will begin leaving due to potential twinkage. I know what Mages, even new characters, are capable of, and I think it's horribly overpowered. Since 3rd edition was released, table top and Live Action have become more compatable. If this holds true for Mage, that would mean they get SIX levels of Spheres. That is just plain disgusting... Forces 2/3 and Prime 2/3 and you get sunlight. Use matter to turn the vampire into a beach ball. A sufficient amount of Life, and that angry Garou ages 194 years. Then you get into the Correspondance and Time problems Jason mentioned. Entropy must be a joy to rule on too... I do think the book could be used for some interesting antagonists though(Technocracy), but as PC's, I don't think it's a good idea.

Mage is probably not a good idea right now. From the Werewolf genre if you have even one power hungry individual in the small numbers of werewolves you do have, that individual would become rather prodominent and by accident or design would produce a large population of twink, hack and slashers, min maxers or what ever you want to call them. From what little I have seen of the vampire genre it's a disciplines galore party. We are having a little trouble finding players who actualy role play rather than going for the attractive glimmer of the supernatural, mysterious, unexplainable, unfathomable, and thus impenitrable and guiltless power. Can you imagine what it would be like with a new genre and a whole new set of powers. This happens every time a new book comes out. Some one always wants to play the bigger better thing that just came out. I apreciate and respect what John the Pirate has done in respects to putting the idea out on the table but until the lack of desire and motivation to actualy role play is adress I think that many such arguments will continue to rear their ugly heads. I don't feel that the question should be "Do we want to play Mages in LARP?". I feel the question should be "Are we ready to play Mages in LARP?". This LARP has been the best in existance that I have witnessed. It has endured the test of time, change in story tellers, resets, school breaks, new genres and what ever else comes it's way. Our LARP is the oldest and best in our area but in many ways the LARP is very young in that we have a lot to learn. Does any one have any suggestions on how we should start learning? How we should encourage role playing and creativity? How we should discourage the undesirable qualities (not individuals)in our LARP?

Like i said... REALLY REALLY responsible people.

Hey, Heh, there is one problem with this whole arguement.I dont know about up here but where i come from we spell the word role-play with an "e" and not two "l's". A role-player would see this chance to implement mages as a enlightnening experience for both the game and the players.This LoA not only could quite possibly add a new and thrilling envirnment to the game, that could not olny broaden storylines but broaden the cities environment as well for atmosphere purposes. Now a "Roll-Player" would abuse such a character, look for a way to be devasting his/her fellow players.Look for a way to win, but alas if this is already happening with the Vampire players ...Definatly with the Lupine players...then whats the difference it would be a matter of the players looking at thier characters as a person than rather a peice of paper with a bunch of numbers on it. So i suppose this dictum merely states this: Before you say no to something because of its possibilty of power ask yourself why you saying this?For its power is something YOUR character cant beat....or truely bad for the game because of "role-playing" or storyline conflicts. My 2 cents, Jacob

Just called the Fortress and they are *hoping* to get the Mage book in today but it doesn't look good. They should have it in by early next week though. Remember, they're nice enough to host our little game so please be nice enough not to buy your LARP stuff at the store down the street.

Oh a party... hosted by another of my family. I do hope you would all be on your best behavior for it. I only wish that i would be able to attend.

It sounds like Mages have been anti-flexibled much like Changelings in LARP that could go a long way toward making them playable. Still I haven't seen the book and agree that a sudden influx of half a dozen mages could be... distressing. Still you cant say you'd never have a mage in the game John because there already has been a PC (hedge)mage. I like Mages, but a crossover Vampire / Mage / Werewolf chronicle would take away even more of the Vampire mojo, whatever it's called... horror/fantasy/comedy/drama stuff. Oh nevermind, just read the section on crossovers in the Storyteller's Book that just came out.

I back ST John on this 100% adding a mage to the game would be totally grim. They're way too overpowered and place too much pressure on the ST (correspondence and time anyone?)besides... how many people would actually want to play in a game where there was a character you could will you to death in one thought.

Well, I wasn't expecting this to be a war for ideological control of the LARP. I was hoping to get actual debate on why people wanted/didn't want Mages in the game, and to what extent they'd like to see them. To throw in my two cents: I actually don't think having a mass of mages at the start of the game would be a great idea. Assuming the power levels are roughly the same, starting mages can theoretically do a lot of very nasty shit, like generating sunlight. That's a lot of power to put in the hands of starting characters, and if you have a full genre of 10 of those...well, it could be very bad. I'm not entirely opposed to the notion of mages in larp, but I do think they should either be limited to very small numbers or focused more on themselves than inter-genre interaction.

If you disallow mages out of hand, then you have to eliminate fae, werewolves, vampires and wraithlike things. Mages are a part of the world of darkness just as much as the rest are. If John has a problem with mages, then it should be discussed, as opposed to him issuing decrees.

BTW, why are you guys let this Wilk tabo dictate from on high what you can and cannot play? ST overseer? Oh Fortress what has become of thee?

I have the death sentance on twelve systems!

Hey, fuzzies! I might not make it to game. If this happens I will simply add to the already substantial story. I hope you find my new charactar refreshing. Enjoy yourselves, and I will show up soonn. someone was saying something about a Rochester game. I would be happy to come. I gotta cool Malkavian charactar concept. E-mail me if you wish. . . I always answer. Have a good day, and may the light of Luna shine upon you all.

There will never be a PC mage in this game as long as I ST it.

This is totally off the topic of the LARP, but this week I was flipping channels and the Lansing Police Department's Most Wanted Fugitive is a 19 year old, while male by the name of Aaron David Conley.

If you come in contact with Aaron Conley, he is to be considered "armed and dangerous".

Well, if the live action mages are anywhere near the power level of tabletop ones, then if they are allowed, then the ST's had better choose a REALLY REALLY responsible player to play them. Although, a mage ghoul or two would be kinda nice.............. *laughs maniacally*

If Mages are allowed, I hope the Garou suspect them all of trying to drain the Caern of it's power and summarily destroy them all... every single one of them... in the most horrific way possible... then gloat about it...a lot... especially at moots.

actually, there's a correction in that. I HAVE looked over the LoA book, but haven't read it through completely yet.

Hey......so I happened to be bumming around today and found out that laws of ascension should be out in general release on monday. What I'm curious is this: how is our LARP going to react to this? Are we going to allow mage PCs? Start a Mage genre? Keep them as NPCs? Or just ignore them completely? Also, I haven't look over the rules book, but to answer the big burning question: Mages in LARP use rotes generally, rather than just dynamic magic. HOWEVER, there are optional rules for both dynamic magic and quick casting, if people want a more table top feel. Anyway, I'm not really of an opinion one way or another. I just thought it would be a good topic to throw out for debate.

Ok, Disreguard that last comment completley. the Gods have seen fit to hoe that charactor out. They have also seen fit to restrict me to "finding a preexisting sire" so if any tremere or brujah would be up for working me into there storyline as there child. Please e-mail me at Lothoas@yahoo.com

Ok, Disreguard that last comment completley. the Gods have seen fit to hoe that charactor out. They have also seen fit to restrict me to "finding a preexisting sire" so if any tremere or brujah would be up for working me into there storyline as there child. Please e-mail me at Lothoas@yahoo.com

Everyone who had a charactor that was there last week whom will still be alive and attending this week: My charactor "Bastian Reinhardt" is an EX Sabbat member. But that shouldnt prevent you from treeting him with contempt. He is a "probationary sect member" (hahaha hey skippy I just realized how ironic that is reguarding the situation.) anyways. as far as the most of you know or care, He may still be a sabbat member. He may be a conditioned member ready to snap at any moment. or simply just for whatever reason, somewhere in the back of your vampy blood sucking heads you are unsure about it and arent afrade to show it.

ok, I'm not going to be able to be at the game saturday due to a damn family wedding. If you want your homework/exp expenditures to be on your character sheet it must be in by 8pm tonight (that's thursday folks)

if it's not in, it wont be printed and I fully expect that Skippy will pick up a large trout and smack the crap out of anyone who wants to spend exp before game.

This is kind of embarassing, but I'm starting to get pretty desperate, so... I need to borrow a rather large chunk of money from somebody; I'd be willing to pay it back with hefty interest, or perhaps through other services. If anybody has a decent amount of cash and wants to make a deal, let me know. Thanks!