Now, I don't like the Toreador either, but to say they don't have an internal is inaccurate. It isn't as "official" as the other clans but they do have it. Whoever holds the most Cammarilla(or Sabbat) Status has the most influence in the clan. Also, the Toreador have guilds in which they can attain more clan status through their particular art form. I don't really see how this justifies all the flaming they receive....

I don't like Toreador because they have no distinction or structure. Example: Ventrue are required to know there lineage back to Cain, Toreador are required to know when the next social gathering is. Tremere have an internal structure and their own police, Toreador have pretty clothes. Nosferatu have a secret bond that they will never plot against each other, Toreador have more cat fights then Jerry Springer! Need I say more? Not to mention ANYBODY can impersonate a Toreador, "What a pretty painting!!" (batters eyebrows) Try Impersonating a Setite, or Giovanni, or even RAVNOS!!! Cant agree with you this time Adam, bless the maker! Toreadors suck ass...

Alright, whats the deal with Toreador being crapped on so much? The Camarilla was a vision of a Toreador methesulah, and the Toreador Justicar is the most powerful. Toreador have as many princedoms as Ventrue. A Toreador is also a match for just about anything, assuming its Celerity is up to par. Where's the reasoning behind all the anti-Toreador flaming?

Ward, there are other clans that really don't exist. For Example, malkavians. We all know how organized and structured the insane are. Truly insane individuals don't form clans, they form LARPs.

Hey!!

I know I am always bitching about non-W.O.D topics on this page but I have an announcement to make. Jeremy Wooten's band, Renaissance Man, is going to be putting on a show at the SMALL PLANET, MONDAY JULY 19TH from 10pm to 2am. Jeremy is a former Fortress larper who hopefully will be able to arrange his schedule to return to us in the fall. He needs as many people as possible to show up because any future performances will be determined by the size of the crowd he can generate. I am asking that anyone in our larp 21 or older who likes to rock and is looking for something cool to do on the bore ingest day of the week, please show up at the planet and show your support for a fellow Larper!!! Just so I can get an idea of numbers, please e-mail me to r.s.v.p. Thank you in advance for your support,

Actually, I think the way they implied it in time of thin blood was that the terror and anger that the Ravnos antideluvian felt upon dieing resonated throughout his clan. Ravnos had woken up after at least a several millenium sleep, and was in a hunger frenzy. I guess that lust for vampire blood was also transmitted throughout the clan at the time of death.

I think it states in Time of Thin Blood, that because of the large number of Ravnos neonates, they start competing for feeding grounds and start whacking each other. Part of the Path of Paradox says to diablerize(although it also says if its out of clan, but thats not important). Because of all the in-clan killing, thats *probably* what caused it.

I'm finally getting used to the fact that the Ravnos got stomped like a narc at a biker rally. I only wonder if white-wolf is going to knock off any more clans, tribes, etc..I'm also wondering why no other clans have gone crazy when their antedilluvians woke up from a long nap. Also, why did Ravnos hate his childer so much that he wanted them to canabalize eachother? Did he secretly know that they were spins? Anyway, I'm not bitching, just posing confusing (to me at least)questions. As for the destruction of the other clans...Ventrue-killing them wouldn't make much sense, even though one of my favorite characters is one, I can't find them that interesting...Tremere-that would have made more sense than the Ravnos, and it's not just because their my least favorite clan, I also think the Giovanni had it comin' to them as well...Toreador-you can't kill a clan that doesn't exist...
"No, really, I'm a Toreador"!
"Yeah, sure you are, buddy".
"Watch, I'll become entranced by this painting...I can write poems...I'm wearing a rose...I'm pretty...why won't believe me"!!!???
"Riiiiight...so, Mr. 'Toreador', what are you really, a black hand spy, a Setite, a True Brujah, a Nosferatu with high Obfuscate"?
Yeah, so anyways I'll get's to steppin'. And personally, I don't think Caine could withstand a Flying Squirrel Kick to the "jimmy". It would just be too much for even him to soak.
Nuttin' but love...

When did Kaphir catch on fire? I missed the big battle at the castle. Anything interesting happen? As for the whole debate over whether the Ravnos should have been the clan to buy it, I think there's something everyone has been overlooking (both here and on the white wolf homepage): the game writer's point of view. Put yourself in the writer's shoes: you want to off a clan in order to kick off the year of the reckoning stuff with a bang. The two aspects that you have to look at are a) how well said clan's death will mesh with the previous WoD cannon, and b) how pissed people are going to be over the destruction. I generally think that a) in the case of the Ravnos was iffy. As has been pointed out many times, other clans, such as the giovanni and tremere, had it coming and a lot more than the Ravnos did. As for b) however, I think it was a valid choice by white wolf. I've been running and playing Vampire for about 6 or 7 years now, and in that time (including both LARP and tabletop), I've seen only 2 people even request to play a Ravnos (1 of them being in the fortress LARP). Granted, there's been a lot of screaming all over the web about the death of the Ravnos, how they were so-and-so's favorite clan, and how all white wolf author's should burn in hell for whacking them, but imagine what the uproar would have been like had it been the Tremere, the Ventrue, or the Toreador. All these clans have a lot more popularity than the Ravnos in WoD games, and have far more players who would either have to scrap their characters or ignore the cannon in their games. Something to think about at least.

My goooood friend Kafir,

I hope that you are enjoying your stay in our grand city of Constantinople. I found it funny that your "friends" protected you by setting you on fire. Oh, and just incase you didn't know....your ass better caaaaallllll somebooodddyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!<\p>

your good friend....

About the Ravnos, I think that they make excellent foils to stuck up Toreador or Ventrue princes in the modern age. They are as far as I am concerned a harmless alternative to a Setite. On another matter: we have had succesful one/two night Sabbat games in the past. Would anyone be interested as a break from the Constantinople game? Third: I am looking for playesr for a hunters table-top. Let me know if interested.

ok..good...just wanted to see if you read it..i'd also like to comment on not posting arguments to brick walls..i find that they do not converse as well as a nice slate wall..it's amazing how well those converse..you really should try it..and if you don't know who you is then you are not you and you are someone else..thus please butt out of my conversation with you and go find someone else to talk to..thank you please come again when you are you and not someone else..

Um, Dave, I never said Troile _wasn't_ the _bastard_ Brujah Antedeluvian. I said he diablerized the True Brujah's Antedeluvian and then got stuck in the Earth, after siring the bastard Brujah. What part was unclear that you took my meaning as Troile not being the bastard Brujah's Antedeluvian???

Um, Adam, in case you hadn't noticed, Troile IS the Brujah Ante. He diab'ed Brujah, and sired the rest of the Clan. That makes him the Ante. Ok, back to lurking.

*Shudder, quiver, wretch* Yeah, I've read the Baali Clanbook, and it mentions how Troile gets stuck in the Earth, not Brujah. If Brujah were still around(in any way) the True Brujah would have probably already killed the Bastard Brujah. On a different note, the Salubri clanbook is REALLY boring....

Have you read the Baali book yet?.

Troile, the Brujah who supposedly diablerized the Brujah Antedeluvian, is the the one who is stuck under where Carthage is because of some wierd salt wooj(damn Tremere).

Brujah isn't dead..he/she/it is burried under the ruins of carthage traped by curses, rites, salt and whatever else they did..but as a note..he/she/it is lying underground in the arms of he/she/it's lover which was a baali..

I have to agree with the fact that the death scene for Ravnos was really short but still it was REALLY gruesome. I have decided that the only two things that could kill Cain would be the end of Earth or a rabid Squirell pooka. I fear both...

*mental note to self....slow down to 65 wpm so that I don't have so many typos*

heheh Ward. Yeah, thanks for filling the gaps in the story. heh :) Anyways I doubt that the nos are gonna get whacked. From my expereince very few things suprise the Nos. Why do you think that they bother to gather the information? So that they can keep up on what is really going on so that they can be somewhere else when bad things such as raving antideluvians raise up and slaughter thousands. That is the reason they do what they do. Yes, it is known fairly wide through the kindred where the nos dwell, but very very few are brave enough to go there themselves. The nos get the information and share it between sects of nos freely so that all of them know where the nictuku and nosferat him are and are doing. The nos are ugly but they are smart, and will gladly through the other clans in the face of the onslaught of gehenna making the others think that it is their idea in the first place. Hehhehe crafty ain't they?

I believe Brujah suffered Final Death, although, like Ward said, there are probably some coincidental factors that mean he/she/it is still alive. Now the True Brujah, there is a clan with a cheaty discipline. I also agree with Ward that the way Ravnos "died" was bogus. He should have engaged some might Technocrat Demi-god in battle, or something to that effect. At least the Spirit Nukes took some Garou with them...

Hey there. Anyways, I'm not saying that the technocracy COULDN'T have killed Ravnos, they obviously did in some form of another. They could have written that part about him dying better, though. They waxed him like a chump. When that ewok died in Return of the Jedi, the movie concentrated longer on that cutesy, maudlin moment than white-wolf did on the death of an antedilluvian. Anyway a few more possibly interesting opinions:
Nosferat's supposed real name is Absimilard, and he was embraced by Zillah, and yes Mike, they do indeed "Ruyle", hah hah...get it? Oh well..., they've always been one of my favorite clans...which means they're gonna get whacked.
The more I find out about the death of any Antedilluvian, the more I doubt that any of them are dead. Think about it, Gratiano supposedly sucked his antedilluvian dry and then he became an archbishop of the Sabbat....what? Wouldn't that make him THE antedilluvian, don't the Sabbat kind of frown on that sort of thing? I truly can't think of any Antedilluvian that is truly dead. There's always some rumor going, or missing facts that make me wary. Tzimisce isn't dead, Saulot is slowly taking over Tremere, Cappadocious' blood wasn't totally consumed...the list goes on and on...so do I.
Here's an interesting fact/rumor. Maybe I'm lagging behind everyone else in the rumor mill, but I recently found it interesting that Saulot was the progenitor of the Baali. Makes sense when you think about it. How else can you have absoloute goodness and purity ansd enlightenment without absolute evil, filth and debasement?
One last thing...that red star that sits close to the moon in the night sky in the world of darkness. Remind me again what happens when the moon shines red as blood?
Anyway, Gehenna is already upon us. I'd like to see how white-wolf will pull all of this off without destroying their world or their jobs.
Nuttin' but love...

HA! A Lasombra wants to have a debate with the Tremere? *waits for response* Ok, just wondering. Anyway, if Lasombra had been awake, when he was assaulted, he might have had a better chance(I don't want to hear about Saulot...). I also know that the Cappadocians were intelligent vampires, but I always thought that they weren't an interesting clan. When I say something is dumb, take it as though it means I don't find that clan interesting, not intellectually deficient. Yes, Nos good... but Assamites are mo betta'

of course, everyone knows that nos is my favorite clan. Pyle has even termed them Nosferatruyle. hehehe, so my opinion is prolly a little biased.

Well, as far as Lasombra, well he was a spin. Of course, all the Antideluvians are spins. The only REALLY cool one is Nosfert!! :D No seriously. None of the others were sly enough to fool every other 2nd and 3rd Gen vampire, so that when Caine went away for a few days, he could exact his revenge on his Sire, that lady, what's her name, grr!. Anyways. He tore her to shreds, all because of one single little almost microscopic scar that he incurred when she embraced him. He was better lookin' that your best Toreodor before his embrace. Well, when Caine came back and saw nosfert standing over the ruined body of his sire, and saw all the childer that nosferat had mad that attacked and occupied all of those that he didn't like, he obviously got mad. Then he saw the scar on Nosferat's cheek, and understood. He then curse Nosferat and all those of his line. Well, Nosferat thinks that if he kills all of his line he will be redeemed in the eyes of Caine. That is why all the Nos fear the Nictuku and will destroy them on site. See, no other 3rd gen had the balls, or lack of sanity, to smite Caines childer. Therefore, Nosferat is the bomb. See? I know you do! :p Oh yeah, I thought of a single thing that could give Caine a run for his money as far as his unlife is concerned....WARD'S MOM!

Jordan....no more caffine. Can you hear me? Understand? No more caffine.

man..i should sleep..

ok...no no..must stop..insults are not allowed..FORBIDDEN!!...wait...hermm..i am ranting in a mannor that is not quite happy and pleasantville...and in pleasantville i rule with a pair of pants much bigger than yours..and i might add much more stylish...i do so have to aplogize for how well they look..they tend to distract people you know..i once was told that a pair of my pants caused the distruction of the space shuttle that had that teacher on it...that or it was a faulty gasket...but i hold to the story that was told to me by a three legged blue midget that when he was walking down the road he found a saw..cut off his third leg..not that third but the one that grew off his knee and followed his calling as attacked the tick in the mental reaches of his own mind which i don't mind because of the fact that it does yet deal with the mind and that is what i am trying to get as a point to what i am studying which is the mind in a way but i don't really want to belabor this with ideas of the mind and how i can dominate a subject on my own mind and pants which brings us full rombus to the idea that a goat cannot play magic and craps at the same time unless he is playing before i kill you mr. bond which is what salout and cappadocious would say to mr.bond too cause i bet they're a bit pissed off for having some arse monkey spank suck them dry..or almost and though i adore the gio i love the caps and would play one in a heart beat and beat and beat and beat some more to the dance fever of my disco inferno that is greased..the music of grease re-done by less than jake mucho goodo in the land of cancuno where the power of one sun shall fry the body of no vampires but one man and his family and he shall return oh yes..he shall..and with his pants..and with a pair of siscors to cut the bomb..oh..and ya..i like the caps..and i like them a lot..

A Rookie mistake?!?! Silly Tremere preaching to me about Lasombra! For your information Assamites were used in the assualt on Lasombra's haven (as were other clans) and were paid with his blood. Gratiano did the deed, Moratano was his brother by embrace and hated rival. Read Kindred Most Wanted, Fledgeling. As for Cappadiocians being stupid, that is a true rookie mistake. They were scholars and priests on par with the Brujah. Just because you do not like a clan does not make it stupid, just makes you shortsighted. Besides, Mortis is REALLY cheaty...

Only 2 Lasombra to destroy the original Lasombra antedeluvian?! Come on Pyle, that's a rookie mistake. Whichever one it was, Gratiano or the one starting with an "M", enlisted the help of several Assamites, which is why it states the blood of the Lasombra antedeluvian runs through the eldest Assamite Antitribu. Granted, this isn't quite the equivalent to 4 other Ancients, low gen Assamites are pretty sick beings(read the description of Ur-shulgi in Children of the Night). As for the Cappadocians... I really don't care, they were a dumb clan, more so than the Ravnos. Giovanni, on the other hand kick ass. White Wolf gets a star for replacing the Cappadocians with the Giovanni... of course they caved with the introduction of the Harbingers of Skulls. *continues reading message board* What?!?! Clerics are dead!!! NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can see your point now Kirk, thanks for explaining further. I agree that Ravnos works better for tabletop than larps, so does Giovanni. (Remember N.A. and Origins) Perhaps that was what I was trying to say with the strong role player comment. It still doesn't break my heart that they went bye bye. Ward, you act like Ravnos was killed by Blodgett's 15th Gen. Malkavian or something. Yes he was THOUSANDS of years old but they did not have the Technology back then that they do now. I mean, Geez it took the equivalent of 4 antediluvians, 4 nuclear bombs and the power of 4 SUNS (not the sun, but 4 of them) to finally destroy him. The antediluvian are not indestructible. It only took 2 lasombra to destroy Lasombra, not to mention 1 Giovanni to out think Cappadious. (he he) If you ask me they made it a little too harsh. If it takes that much to destroy a 3rd Gen. vampire, What on earth could destroy Cain? Think about that...

Cool!! I just read on the TSR web page that in the "Coming of Apocalipse" angle for "Forgotten Relms" that all of the Clerics get whipped out by Cyric!!! Kick ASS!!

I would like to address a couple of points I made in my last post, most specificially to address Pyle. First off, I did not say you did not understand the Ravnos clan. Please re-read my last post. I commented that it is obvious that most people posting here do not understand the Romani. Ravnos/Romani -- not the same, just like you said. You are far more versed in WoD lore than I am.

Second, my chastising you for encouraging poor roleplaying comes from what you posted. Allow me to quote you, "It is true that a strong player can make a usefull Ravnos character but I think that you should not have to have a strong player to make it a usefull clan. You are not always going to have strong players so it makes Ravnos just that much harder for people to play right." To me, it certainly sounds as if you are advocating that the only good clans are ones in which a poor roleplayer is capable of playing. Am I wrong? What is it that you think makes a good clan?

My personal opinion is that the clans most fun playing are those that require thought and intrigue. Though I love to mock Toreador, I love to play them. I also like Tremere and Ventrue, because they are multi-layered. I mock power players and will always do so. Lucas Blackstone did more as a mortal than some of the most blatant power-mongers (and he lived longer).

I did not mean to insult you Pyle. It will much more blatant and obvious if I start insulting you. I promise. In fact, if I didn't think you were a good gamemaster I wouldn't have wasted my time even addressing you or your comments. In fact you are a very good gamemaster which is exactly why I wanted to take issue with your comment.

Perhaps this discussion needs further clarification. I do like the Ravnos clan however, I will conceed that they seem to work better in tabletop than in LARPs. A lot of things work poorly in LARPs and I personally think should be wiped out. I do disagree that the Ravnos make a poor antagonist. True, they are not a PENTEX or Technocracy but that doesn't mean they can't get a good storyline started. Ultimately, the effectiveness of any antagonist is up to the storyteller just as it is up to the individual player to make a good protagonist.

Regarding the quality of players...that's always been an issue with LARPs. When you play a table top WoD game there is always control over who plays and who is invited. Not so in LARPs. You get a wide varience in the quality of players so I think it is only needed that more controls over the game need to be exercised; anyone who's tried to run a LARP knows that.

Everyone needs a good kick in the pants now and then. Including you, including me. I expect my friends to tell me when I'm out of line and I will do the same to them. I'm not going to apologize for my last post but I did want to explain it.

Wait... didn't they do that in Dragonlance? (eliminate all clerics) Oh no, that was the GODS they eliminated... the Clerics were just spun.

Hey there. Well, I'm not in the greatest mood, but that has nothing to do with the Ravnos beatdown...anyways I can understand why the technocracy did what they did, they're trying to protect humanity from the supernatural, of course they're upsetting the natural balance and food chain of the world of darkness, but static reality can do that. How they did it was pretty cheaty...but again, that'sthe Technomancer's forte'. Spirit nukes and refracted sun mirrors? The spirit nukes alone should've had them wallowing in paradox like a pookah in taters. I guess this all kind of leads up to the release of the sixth storyteller book, Hunter, in which humanity attempts to take their fate into their own hands, I think. About the Kuei Spins, I think the symbolism of a tiger crane and dragon fighting the Antedilluvian was a little cheesy, reminded me too much of a Chinese restaurant, although the symbolism of Ravnos as Ravana, a ten headed ten armed demon king of the rakshasa (or trickster spirits), was pretty cool (see the Setite's opinion of the Ravnos in the 3rd edition main book). I think white-wolf was trying to give KoE a push because they've gotten pretty little positive response. Has anyone even made it through the main rule-book? Anyways, the rest of the story was good, trying to involve the rest of the white-wolf genres, it was just the ending that mainly spun me. Ravnos' ending was like *boom* he survives the nukes and Bodhisattvas *boom* he says the equivalent of "me hungry" in Sanskrit *boom* he's a charcoal briquette on the ground...a veritable over cooked Shrinky-Dink. This is a creature that is 10 THOUSAND years old, give or take a century, and is like a god in power, and he's snuffed with less fanfare than Kate's character when she buried her costume in the backyard....whoah. This is WAY too long, I'll stop.
nuttin' but love...

*hugs Blodget and nods*....pants..

AHHHHH!!!!!!!!! Random blather... head hurts now. Anyway, in regards to me playing antagonistic characters, thats me, not an entire clan. If I wanted to cause trouble as a member of a certain clan, I would play a Setite or Assamite. About the Garou vs. Cyrus deal... I only responded to the Garou, I didn't initiate it. I figure if I wanted to avoid them, I could stay in my nice Ward vs everything Haven, but that would get boring really quickly. Okie, me done....

Hey, G. Dawg, I know how you feel: I remember how pissed I was when they obliterated the Salubri. And for no good reason! Yeah, I admit that they weren't the most fun or interesting clan, but that's no reason to all but annihilate them. I think that part of it was that people weren't playing them correctly: I remember playing so many games with bad Salubri player character concepts: the Flame Master, the Ninja Salubri (complete with shurikens of healing), the Chaos Vulcan, the Deranged Eye Gouger, the Golconda Hunter (who would seek out those who had obtained Golconda, slay them, then search their corpse), and, worst of all, the Squirrel Trainer (squirrels + Valreen = heavy cheatiness). At this point, I don't think much about it anymore (the wounds have healed (ha, ha!)), but at the time, it was like "What the hell was White Wolf thinking? Like the Tremere are an exciting clan, or something! You don't see TSR saying shit for D&D like 'ok, now, all the clerics get killed'!" Whatever.. now I'm all pissed again. *sighs*

Pants?

Technocracy: Definition and Goals - Understood. Thanks... you did point out somethings I haven't read in the books.

Technocracy: Limits and Weaknesses - None. At least it seems so. I even feel comfortable dealing with (I forget the name now) the Werewolf antagonist corporation (the fomori kinda have a cannon-fodder feel and their squishy texture makes cool splatters when you rend them). The Technocracy simply seems to have no "stats". Sure, they give stats for Hit Marks and such, but how many can they typically deploy in an area? Also I'm really foggy on what a Technocracy Compound is like. The only thing I can imagine is something huge and bureaucratic. It would have cubicles... yeah that's it... lots of cubicles. Like Dilbert on downers.

The technocracy is pretty well defined in the books about them as well as the players guide to the technocracy which comes out later this year. As to why they did what they did what they did make sense once you understand what they basically want. The technocracy strives for a consensual reality which in basic terms means everybody has the same opinion on what is real and what is not. Everyone must believe that Vampires/ werewolves/ wraiths/ changelings are only myths. Therefore when an antediluvian wakes and starts trouble this goes against their reality. The decision was made to take out Ravnos with no causalities to great. The science was Bangladesh; after years of war to fight back the Kindred of the East the shear amounts of kindred final deaths cause Ravnos to rise. His awakening cause the Kindred of the East to send 4 of Their versions of Antediluvian (Bodhisattvas) to stop Ravnos. They summoned a typhoon that allowed them to battle night and day. This severally endangered conceptional reality so the technocracy decided to strike. 4 neutron bombs were dropped. Several million people were killed. All 4 Bodhisattvas were destroyed. Ravnos still lived. The technocracy then pointed 4 space mirrors so the power of 4 SUNS hit him at once, then there was nothing but dust. I think it was well written and grim, codos to Justin Achilli! No offense, Ward.

Dude, *HUGE blank stare*, they took the G. Dawg seriously!! I think I'm gonna cry... Someone paid attention to my random meaningless meandering other than to mock it... I have to mark this day in my calendar *Lifts leg and marks day on calendar*

Wow... I make no sense at all. Remind me to take my meds before posting next time.

Game off!

Technocracy killed the Ravnos... that just about makes me upchuck. Even if it's only in part. The technocracy must be controlled by a joint group of Glasswalkers and Tremere. At least that would explain some things. I'll tell you this... if there ever was a crappy NPC group it's the Technocracy. They aren't well defined, they seem ultra cheaty, and they're part of the Mage genre. The last one is enough for me by itself. The first two...well it kinda reminds me of the Son of Shadow. (No offense Pyle. I'm sure you had him well defined, but we knew next to nothing about him that could help us defeat him). In other words, they make for a frustrating enemy. I pity the Ravnos for whatever Technocracy toes they stepped on.

You know... come to think of it... doesn't this go along with what I said about computers and video cameras? I think I feel like a touchdown dance. Yes... definately a touchdown dance is in order.

On other matters, Adam: You seem to be saying (see #3 below) that troublemakers have no place in society? Haven't you noticed all the trouble and headaches you've been involved in over the last bunch of months? You certainly saved the storytellers a bunch of work with Hunter. I kinda liked him... hey... wait... he's not in siciety anymore is he? Hmm... How about Cyrus and his Werewolf taunting ways? Carlos is on Vikadin tainted blood infusions because of him. But dont get me wrong. Once again, it makes things interesting. Wait, this part was supposed to be a comedy thing... ah well. Sorry Adam.

Pyle: are you insinuating that... wait... what were you insinuating? Oh yeah. Are you insinuating that you plotted this entire message board revival thing? I think it was a Pookah/Pants enigineered plan to keep Flava' and G'Dog down. Dont you see how you were used and manipulated now? I thought so...

Game on!

Yeah, Mike! Anyway, I think Senior Flava' Unit has a good point. The Gehenna book is supposedly due out soon, and it will probably be settled in there. Besides, with Chimerstry 10, maybe he created his own reality right before he died, er whatever and is currently unliving with many undead Gypsy wenches. Anyway, I think this discussion has pretty much died....

/rant on

Ok, I'm finally going to chime in. Adam and Pyle you are right. insulting people has NO place on this page. I am SICK of all the bickering that has gone on. Let's get back to the actual DISCUSSION! Which, if I am correct, is about the RAVNOS! They are dead. Some people are happy about that, some are not. There are reasons for both. If we are going to continue the discussion on the Ravnos' distruction, let us do it in a CIVILAIZED manner. Don't forget we are all supposed to be FRIENDS here. Don't forget that and stop the insults!

/RANT OFF

Wow, the comment page has been jumpin' lately, I can feel the prickly heat comin' off it just by reading it. Anyways, just to settle a few things: The Ravnos antedilluvian was "destroyed" by a combination of both The Kindred of the Least, AND the Technocracy. Namely 4 Bodhisattvas and 4 special neutron bombs and space mirrors that directed the light of the sun. (Also by the fact that Justin Achilli said so) Now, somebody has to agree that was kind of a lame way to go out...bringing the Technocracy and the Kuei-Spins into a plot line, I think I could could written something marginally better. The Ravnos are now a blood line, not all of them are dead(really), but a lot of them went crazy and committed ritual suicide or something and there are so few left they're like Andean Condors. Personally I think that any antedilluvian with powers greater than Chimestry 10 could fake their death and hang low for a while, so I'm not counting them out. Not necessarily because I like them, but even if you got rid of a AntedilluvianI don't like at all, say, Tremere, I'd still think that he'd be crafty enough to escape total annihlation, but possibly not crafty enough from having Saulot take over his soul...rumors are fun. So, I just wanted to clear a few things up. Pyle, I'm not against you, besides, I know that you and I are staunch lovers of Augustus' family anyways.
P.S. Babba Yaga isn't dead...yet, although she will die in a supplement released next year. I think Just Achilli meant that she was dead in a sort of phrase like "Dude, you are DEAD!" kinda' like she's as good as dead. She didn't bite the dust in Rage Across Russia, but I wonder just who could take her out?
Nuttin' but Love

1) Insulting someone, not their opinion, really doesn't have a place on a message board. If you've got balls enough to say it to their face, do it then. 2) Silent Striders blow... Silver Fangs and Fianna kick ass. 3) Do the Ravnos have a reason for being in the WoD? No, they were trouble makers. Benji might have been an exception, but that was to fit a plot in which there were few vampires and a trust had to be established between the 5 or 7 vampire PC's. If there had been 15+ vampires, Cyrus would have asked Carlos to disallow non-Gangrel independents from Elysium, but seeing as there aren't(I hope with the merger there will be) that many, I didn't. Anyway, the Technocracy probably had a reason for killing the Ravnos, and that was their belief in that Wieg crap and not science. They'll probably go after the Malkavians, Tremere, or Changlings next.

Just a quick amendment on a previous post. It turns out that the technocracy (sp?) destroyed Ravnos antediluvian not the Kindred of the East. Now I will responded to the insults directed toward me:

I did not expect people to have the same opinion as me and I still don't. However, I did not expect some people to be immature enough to be insulting towards my opinion. I was hurt by Kirk saying I was a poor example to my players and that I did not understand the culture of the Ravnos. I was also shocked and appalled by WgD saying he expected better. I think people better start understanding that other people will always have different opinions from theirs. So I don't like a Vampire clan, BIG F$%&*#@ WHOP!! IT IS A GAME!!! It doesn't mean I don't like or understand the GYPSY because I do! I just don't like the Ravnos clan, sorry... (By the way, True Ravnos have NOTHING to do with Gypsies, read "Time of Thin Blood") Some people don't like Giovanni and I understand that. People are always going to like other Clans/Kith/Guild/Tribe/Tradition than other people, That is what makes the game great! But saying someone is a poor example/disappointment/not understanding/ because they do not share your view point of a certain group is just childish and I expected more out of this group. Just a quick point: I started this debate to revive a dead comment page... So in that sense at least I have achieved my goal.

It is time that the Wanderin' Gypsy Dawg had his say.

First, I'd like to thank Ward, Kirk, Skippy, and Dave for their wonderful tributes to my clan. Yes, MY clan. They will always be such and I pity anyone who can't see why. Next, Pyle, I expected more from you and... well, Adam, you are just too spinny to respond to.

I will freely admit that Benji certainly did not help in negating the spinniness aspect that many see in the Ravnos, however, I will remind you all that Benji also was a team player and was a full fledged member of Camirilla society (hell, he was such a great infiltrator that NO ONE KNEW HE WAS A RAVNOS IN-CHARACTER TILL HE TOLD YOU ALL!!!) and was a member of one of the longest standing coteries with Chris Rage. This is because Chris Rage *earned his trust* and therefore the favor was returned. That is how a kumpaniya outside of the gypsy family is formed.

Yeah, he was silly, partly because he was my "fun" character, partly because it let him get away with SO MUCH SHIT!!!

The Ravnos were descended from the same stock as the Gangrel don't forget. The Ravnos had their own sense of honor. It just didn't quite match what *your* code of ethics happened to be. That was the tragic and the most endearing part of playing a Ravnos. I just finished reading Bill Moyers interview with August Wilson and it is interesting to look at the similarities and differences here between the Ravnos and the black people in America. Both are put under incredible and almost squashing pressures to conform to the society that they live in to be able to survive. The major difference is that while the blacks have become through assimilation almost alien to both our culture in America and to the ancestral Africa and worse of all to themselves, the Ravnos struggled to always remain true to themselves and in the end it was a large part of their downfall. (BTW, recognize the generalizations where they lie. I'm not trying to start a friggin race war.)

As far as the Ravnos' place in the Jyhad, from my standpoint it was always to open your eyes to truth as opposed to illusions in whatever form they drifted by. The Ravnos stood squarely against the Antediluvians and nothing would have pleased them more than to release their weig all over the damn place. All Kindred suffered a great loss in the Ravnos and the sad part is they obviously, as Pyle and Adam have so eloquently shown us, don't quite realize it. All Kindred, whether they choose to see it or not, have somewhat duller perceptions of the world now that we are gone. How much easier it will be for the Antediluvians to spin their evil web now. I pity all of you.

Thankfully the Silent Striders will make it all the way to Apocalypse. And I remind you all that the Ravnos are still alive in the Dark Ages. And I can't help but turn to Level 10 Chimerstry and wonder... But that's for us to know... One way or another, I'm sure I'll see most of you at Gehenna MUHAHAHA.

I am, and always will be, THE Wanderin' Gypsy Dawg

I'll try and present a more objective point of view on the Ravnos issue. Of all the clans to be wiped out, the Ravnos were one of the most vulnerable. 1) The only allies the Ravnos have as a whole, are Gypsies. I don't see how a Gypsy could provide any useful service when trying to hide from whatever the KoE used to find Ennoia(Ravnos Antedeluvian). 2) Being an independent clan, they had no help from either sect. I'm sure the Sabbat weren't sorry to get rid of the few Anti-tribu. 3) The had a bad reputation in kindred society and no way of hiding themselves sufficiently. No Obfuscate, Obtenebration, or Earth Meld. I'm sure some of them picked up a few tricks here and there, but not enough to benefit the entirity of the clan. 4) Their disciplines were meant to be used to commit whatever crime it is they were compelled to commit once per night. They weren't meant to aid in a conflict. Fortitude would just make dying take longer. Animalism isn't that good if someone is already beating the hell out of you, and Chimerstry is totally useless if someone is in a frenzied rage, or decided to spend a point of Willpower. 5) Its the final nights, and it was bound to happen to one of the clans sooner or later. Anyway, I'm done... P.S. The Gangrel novel has a kick ass ending.

Ravnos, Ravnos where for art thou Ravnos?

My thoughts on this matter are thus... clans die, clans grow. C'est la vie. If a clan in the modern age is to die though it would probably be an independant clan. Ravnos also have few allies largely due to their own nature. They generally eventually backstab anyone who is foolish enough to trust them. As it gets harder and hard to preserve the masq allies are more precious than ever to erase any mistakes that might be made.

On a positive note, their powers of illusion (and I might be revealing my own lack of research on the clan here) would seem to make them one of the more survivable clans on their own. *IF* they were able to adapt to a changing role in the Jyhad they would most likely survive. It seems, however, that they have been caught, and crushed, between the egos of two or more of the "powers that be". Possibly the same ones that made the computer and the video camera flourish in society. Higher forces desire and have attained the ability to monitor people's moves and dont tolerate the sneaky and highly indepentdant minds of the Ravnos.

I would hope the chaos they create somehow manages to survive their purge. The World of Darkness is a more interesting place with them in it.

Based on some of the arguments presented in this forum, White Wolf ought to settle to base it's characters and storylines for those with little if any roleplaying ability. Me big bad kick ass character. Me kill you. Me kill ALL....LIGHTING CLAWS.

The destruction of the clan Ravnos does make some sense historically. The gypsy's have heen persecuted since their departure from homeland of India. Their distrust of others can be traced to their lack of trust given to them. The Romani do have a culture, though it is obvious that most on this forum are ignorant of it. Because their numbers are small and their frequent travels, they became bands of entertainers, merchants and yes, thieves. But there is an honor code the Romani uphold.

As the Ravnos are based on the Romani, I will continue to argue that they are no better and no worse than any other clan. And arguing for bad roleplaying is a poor example for all your players, Pyle.

I read in "Time Of Thin Blood" That a few of the Kindred of the Least, I mean East versions of antedeluvian wastes him.

You HATED agreeing with me, Pyle? *sniff* Anyway, I also agree that a Gypsy group of vampires had no place in vampiric society of intrigue, politics(politicing at Fortress soon... WOOHOO!!!), and sect conflict. The other independent clans do, but the Ravnos were just there to cause problems for both sects and to be untrustworthy by both sects. I've heard a rather odd story about how the Ravnos antedeluvian gets wasted, have you heard anything, Pyle?

Here is a point to help my side: No one is going to argue that Ravnos are based on the Gypsy. Gypsy stay in caravans travalling around telling stories and such. They are largely distrusted by society because of the thieve reputataion and the myth that they take children and such. Therefore, Gypsy familys stay away from society for the most part. It is this speration and their constant travel that makes them difficult to be a true party character. Their tricky and illusions make them annoying but would anyone put them on the same level as Baali or Pentex for antagonists? I dont think so... So were does that leave them? As a fasinating and fun group but not one with any real place in a World Of Darkness...

Ouch..head..hurting...mind..failing...feeling...normal..ouch..

Escuse my novice knowledge, but . . . don't Ravnos, or any gypsy for that matter, like to tell stories? So, if theory A) Storytelling games are about stories, and if theory B) Ravnos like telling stories, then theory C) Ravnos are storytellers, must be true! . . . wait, wait . . . theory A), and then theory B), and theory C) sums up that . . . Storytelling games are about the Ravnos!!! . . . so the Ravnos can't die! The game is all about them!!! -- oooh, spin --

I HATE saying this, but I agree with Adam. I have never liked the Ravnos clan because they make poor antiganists and even poorer party characters. It is true that a strong player can make a usefull Ravnos character but I think that you should not have to have a strong player to make it a usefull clan. You are not always going to have strong players so it makes Ravnos just that much harder for people to play right. Even a strong player will have to go out of their way and against thier clan nature to help out a party without reward. Yes the Ravnos were a good choice for distruction, Cain bless their soul...

This might be a shock to some of you, so you better sit down:

STORYTELLING GAMES ARE ABOUT TELLING A STORY.

If you don't understand how this applies to the current thread of discussion, do not fear, for you have my pity.

The Gangrel do have a clan structure, although there is no hierachy type structure like that of the Giovanni or Tremere. The Gangrel who travel the most and tell the best stories receive the most respect from the clan. Gangrel who are successful in dealing with the Garou are especially honored among the clan. The Ravnos just wonder around trying to commit some signature crime. Ravnos are being axed because the serve no purpose in vampiric society other than being annoying. Contrary to what many at Fortress believe, the Toreador do have a purpose, as they are one of the leading clans in terms of offices held in the Camarilla.

i miss momma...and i miss armand...and i miss holly as my quiet little wife..*chuckles*...more so though..if they EVER axe the malks i will personally walk down to white wolf hq and rip out every idea man's eyes and shove them up their where the sun don't shine holes so they can watch me kick the stuff that comes out of the where the sun don't shine holes out of them...man...that'd really bum me out...

I agree with Crampton. The problems with the Ravnos are not that they are a sucky clan but that they were unpopular and often role-played incorrectly. Let's face it, they aren't the beat-ass clan (Brujah), the prissy art-fags (Toreador), the sneaky spys (Nosferatu), or the mafia types (Giovanni).

This clan was the gypsy clan. Mimicking the history and heritage of the Romani of the real world and providing the tie-ins to the association of the gypsy to the vampire were important elements about this group.

If the argument is made that they should be whacked due to a lack of clan structure in the Ravnos clan, then I argue that the Gangrel should be next to be eliminated. Followed by the Malkavians.

To many people turn to the power-gamer approach when dealing with LARP and the WoD. People want bigger guns, more aggravated damage and bigger bad ass characters.

White wolf is a STORY TELLING game. And it ALWAYS comes down to good roleplaying and storytelling. Much of it will fall to the gamemaster.

And how can you people mock the Ravnos. Don't you remember 'Mama' Giovanni? I really annoyed Amy with the introduction of that character. Oh well, it's too late. 'Mama's' dead.

If played correctly, a Ravnos can be a wholly interesting and deep character. If you boil a character down to its numbers alone, however, you will get Adam's viewpoint. If you understand even an inkling of what a story is and the potential of any character to effect it, you will realize that the Ravnos are equal to any of the other clans in their ability to add to the story.

Preach on Brothah Pyle! Ravnos were simply one of the stereotypical groups that White Wolf had to include with the clans. They were the tricksters, like the Nuwisha and Pooka(I'm not that familiar with the Kith, so it may be a different Kith than Pooka who are the tricksters, not that I care that much). The deserved to be hunted down and obliterated simply for the fact they're annoying. Case in point is their clan advantage in Live Action. Sure, Malkavians are annoying, but they serve some purpose in the Cammarilla. The Ravnos simply existed, with no purpose... well, except being hated by the Gangrel. Lastly, if you go to White Wolf's page and read the FAQ about 3rd edition Vampire, Baba Yaga is dead....(there's still a cool description of her in the WoD book though).

Sorry Ward buddy, but your wrong! I understand that your love of Ravnos will keep them alive in your heart and mind much like all those Elvis fans, but the fact of the matter is that they are DEAD. Arguements can be made that a few still spin around but the book says that they are of VERY low blood. Also, they have no antidaluvian (sp) so it makes those spanks a BLOOD LINE. However, even bloodlines require organization and purpuse, neither of which those spins have. Besides they are so low blood they can have human children for crying out loud!! I agree with the "Time of Thin Blood" when it states: Storytelers, for all points and purposes the RAVNOS are DEAD! Morn them Ward, and then let them go...

Okay, I happen to like the Ravnos, they happen to be in a tie for my favorite clan. One of my favorite characters I ever played was a Rom...and I played him well. Which I think is the problem with why some of you people don't like them. Hardly anyone plays them right (Malkavian syndrome), no offense G Dawg. Anyways, as a part of this pseudo-eulogy, I'd just like to state that the Ravnos ARE NOT DEAD...most of them will be wiped out, which is what was said, they will be hunted down to a select few. So, yeah, very few Gypsy, White-Wolf's gonna off them like Hitler did...I think it adds to that whole suffering thing they've got going...the whole Ravnos history is about laughing when your crying inside...y'know, sad clown kinda thing. Anyway, I'm just wondering how it's going to happen, maybe Baba Yaga is gonna come back for Durga Syn and all of her childer...anyways. I'm not really sad or anything, but if one of your favorite clans/tribes/traditions/guilds or kiths got the axe...well, you know, only other gamers could understand. Oh well, at least the Giovanni are still around, god bless 'em.
Nuttin' but Love

For all those that I did not talk to about their influences, I need to know what influence and how much of the pertaining influence that you all actually have. I have a list of pretty much everyone I believe. If someone has the max influence in a particular trait you can only get to that max level of influence by subverting the one with the higher level of influence to get it. ie., someone has 5 in politics and you have 4 and wish to get to five, you have to, through IN CHARACTER METHODS, take that level away from him.

On a more upbeat note....THE RAVNOS ARE DEAD!!! WOOOHOOOO!!! For all those in my table top...that WILL come up in the game eventually. >:D

Just to let everyone know the answer to the debate over what clan is going to get waxed...The winner is:

RAVNOS

This information comes straight out of the new "Time of Thin Blood" book. Personnaly this does not break my heart as I always found the Ravnos to be stupid. Plus, I was worried about my favorit clan, Giovanni. So for all you Ravnos lovers out there I have two words for ya! NA NA!!!

Hear YE, Hear Ye:

I think all of you have gotten used to my e-mail by address now, so it is time to change it! My new e-mail address is:

Well the URL didn't come up so here it is again:

http://www.angelfire.com/de/detroitbynight/Page0.html

I'll be bringing a visitor from out of state to the game tomorrow so be ready and make her feel welcome.

Oh yeah, and she's seen the pictures on the web page. Anyone that wants to see her RP web page can click on the URL left below.

Shakespeare is mocking me, huh? Well then... *turns up the Rage Against the Machine and Lights a BIG fire* Lets change that around shall we. *Pulls out a big pile of Shakespearian crap and burns it*. For those of you who don't know, I HATE Shakespeare. Anyway, the Gangrel clan novel is boring....

Funny,it seemed hauntingly familiar to me... Can't quite place it... Well all I have to say is Shakespeare is mocking you hehehehe.

If you haven't read it already, MET Journal 2 contains some stereotypical player types. It includes such titles as terrified newbie, the bitter non-roleplayer, and yes, the rules lawyer. While they aren't all 100% accurate, they're darn close, and exceptionally funny reading. Laterz. It also has the power-gamer, but the level of power-gaming described in the journal far surpasses anything I've seen....

An anouncement to all!!! I have chosen not to LARP for the rest of this summer due to many things that are going on for me. I will leave the Scarlet Yeoman character in the hands of the Storyteller corps, particulary the one in charge of the Toreador family--Brieger. It's been fun playing Dark Ages (especially when I got to take out some gargoyles), but it's time for me to say bye-bye for now. I look forward to being really creepy with Garamon in the fall. Oh yes, I shall return . . . .???

Pyle, could you contact me. I'm tired of leaving messages at your house. I need to talk to you about camping for the Ren Fest.

Royal Court Tip #2: Never feed on a mortal that just ate beans before going before the Trinity

Why is it that as soon as we get a fire marshall we get at least 3 fires and smog fills the city?

Royal Court Tip #1: Never Hire A Ravnos Jester...

Brieger, did I forget to mention "Dude! No!" *semi-concerned/scared look on face but not really*

Hmmmmm.... President W. G. Dawg... It has a certain ring to it... MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Well Brieger-Dog, at 25 you can rent cars at hotels and airports all across the US. And at 30, you can run for governor or president, something like that.

Hey all!! The G. Dawg is invitin y'all to join him at Bilbo's on Satuday at 11am to celebrate his 154th Birthday (that's 22 in human years for those of you without calculators handy)!! I'd be honored if you can be there and if you're not then I'LL KILL YOU *insert your laughter or a swift boot to the G. Dawg's ass here*. But please do come and help me celebrate the first of many insignificant birthdays (after 21 there's just not much left is there?!?! =-)~ ). Love y'all!!! WGD

I don't know about this "merger". It seems to be clearly indicitive of the aggressive tendencies exhibited by Vampiric ghouls thereby fulfilling the wishes of their masters to obtain more influence and power in the pre-existing scheme of Lansing LARP politics.

Then again, maybe I'm just a neurotic paranoid schizophrenic and this is a good thing.

May the script be with you.

Here are the notes we took from the meeting with the Fallen Gods LARP about merging. We discussed the following points:

Just to let EVERYONE know: I'm working Saturday so I'm unable to play the Scarlet Yeoman for Dark Ages. For any characters that inquire, Simon will be in his bowyer fletcher shop working. Any downtime with Simon, will still be okay (i.e. buying special bows and arrows). If you want to roleplay it out, I'll let Mike Robinson have control of Simon for the night.

Jordan. I don't know when Highland Fling is, but i'm sure we can get a group to go up for the day. The little camping trip will be taking place the first weekend of the festival on August 13th-15th. We will be camping on Friday night the 13th, going to the festival on the 14th, camping that night and coming home on Sunday the 15th. Please let me know ASAP if you are interested. I will be making reservations for the campground on Friday. Thanks!!

i am at a loss for words...i was laughing so hard i hurt myself...that or laughing caused me to remember that i've been working in a wood working/furnature shop for the past week and it hurts...either way..damn that was funny..and thank you for dedicating it to me..i shall return..and so shall my pants...fear me scotts..i am coming to ren. fest!...dang blasted kilts are almost as bad as a canadian eating bacon while masturbating to a beaver gnawing on a tree in the great white north...

Because it's been requested, and in memory of Jordan.... 25 lines from Star Wars that can be improved if you substitute the word "Pants" 1) A tremor in the pants. The last time I felt this was in the presence of my old master. 2) You are unwise to lower your pants. 3) We've got to be able to get some reading on those pants, up or down. 4) She must have hidden the plans in her pants. Send a detachment down to retrieve them. See to it personally Commander. 5) These pants may not look like much, kid, but they've got it where it counts. 6) I find your lack of pants disturbing. 7) These pants contain the ultimate power in the Universe. I suggest we use it. 8) Han will have those pants down. We've got to give him more time! 9) General Veers, prepare your pants for a surface assault. 10) I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants back home. 11) TK-421. Why aren't you in your pants? 12) Lock the door and hope they don't have pants. 13) Governor Tarkin, I recognized your foul pants when I was brought on board. 14) You look strong enough to pull the pants off of a Gundark. 15) Luke, help me take these pants off. 16) Great, Chewie, great. Always thinking with your pants. 17) That blast came from those pants. That thing's operational! 18) Don't worry. Chewie and I have gotten into a lot of pants more heavily guarded than this. 19) Maybe you'd like it back in your pants, your highness. 20) Your pants betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... your sister! 21) Jabba doesn't have time for smugglers who drop their pants at the first sign of an Imperial Cruiser. 22) Yeah, well short pants is better than no pants at all, Chewie. 23) Attention. This is Lando Calrissian. The Empire has taken control of my pants. I advise everyone to leave before more troops arrive. 24) I cannot teach him. The boy has no pants. 25) You came in those pants? You're braver than I thought.

Out of Character Information for knowing who Justicars and Archons(NPC's from Children of the Night) are? I think not. Its usually fairly well known who other cities' princes are. I don't see how in any way knowing a Justicar or Archon's identity would be OOC knowledge, aside from the Gangrel maybe. If you're referring to knowing what the characters possess discipline, ability, attribute etc. wise, I apologize, but this is where that that thing known as roleplaying is involved... acting as though I don't know what powers they possess. One reason I asked is due to the fact NPC's from supplements were used in the past(Capone, Gratiano, Moratano[sp?]). Sorry for reading White Wolf supplements for my own, personal enjoyment and asking a simple question....

*sniff*..i love you guys...and count me in for the ren. fest...i mean where else can i mock the scotts so effectively...i'll be up at state by the 27 of aug..

Children of the Night, Adam? Is that for your Out of Character Information 201 class? How many more credits do you need to attain your Bachelor's Degree in Spinniness? Anyways, Um, I'd like to go to the Renaissance Festival with ya'll, but camping isn't my forte'. Not to say that I hate it, I just get easily annoyed when camping and people get easily annoyed with me when I'm camping. First, and foremost, I have to get my considerable ass up to East Lansing in the first place. I've only been gone for a month, but it seems like it's been forever. Apologies to those who wanted me to come up this past weekend. Well that's my weekly update from the Barony of Carovia. Nuttin' but love...

Yes, Adam. Yes, I have. In addition to losing Internet access, all the power in my dorm has been cut off. Now, we must read by candle light in the night time and play tiddly winks in the day. We cook our food over giant fire pits outside the dorm, which at times, have been confused by the local authorities as riot bonfires, at which point we run away and hide in the caves we call dormrooms. (Can you say "mock!")

The Storyteller Corps will be meeting later this week with the leadership of the Fallen Gods L.A.R.P to discuss questions and concerns over a possible merger. Date, time and location T.B.A. Any person interested in attending please contact me via e-mail before Wednesday, June 9th. If you have questions you would like asked and do not wish to attend please send them to me via e-mail by Wednesday, June 9th as well. I, of course, will be posting complete information regarding the results of the meeting after its completion. Thank you for your continued support,